In fact we had a mare with two blue eyes once, we are looking for old lipizzaner with blue eyes. We already found out some studs with this sign. Does anybody have such a horse in mind too? Favory Sarda, Pluto Presciana and Favory Montenegra had at least one blue eye (we don't see both eyes on the pictures). Any else known by accident ?
edit: found this picture some time ago. i had to search it. a lipizzaner stallion painted by hamilton with blue eyes
My mare has a parti-blue eye on the left. It's in the Pluto Bono line, apparently.
AntwortenLöschencan i find the pedigree of your mare anywhere online or would yopu be able to send it? thanks for your help!
AntwortenLöschenIt's Pluto Bona, not Bono. Dunno where my brain was when I wrote that :D
AntwortenLöschenhttp://www.allbreedpedigree.com/fionna7
Someone in the Yahoo Lipizzaner group just posted a gelding for sale that has a solid blue eye. I'll see if I can find the particulars for you.
Of course now I can't find it. Sigh.
AntwortenLöschenlol- no problem. o is nearly beside the a on the keyboard ;)
AntwortenLöschenagain thnaks for your help!
That was me who posted about the gelding with the solid blue eye. His breeding is "546 Conversano Mima" b. 2/28/94 Piber x Mariposa b. 5/6/98 White Horse Vale (Goldendale, WA, USA).
AntwortenLöschenRiposada - if you would like to send me a message with your email address, I can send you the pedigree. Also, last year I was collecting information on blue-eyed Lipizzans. I won't have time until tomorrow afternoon, but I will look through my notes and maybe we can collaborate?
Lisa! Yes, it was you. My brain went blank and I could not find the post you made anywhere. Do you have a link to his picture? He is quite stunning.
AntwortenLöschenmy email is not a secret. ilona.kirsch@t-online.de
AntwortenLöschenand of course we collect facts together and try to find out more. one member of our association is very involved in the paints and also willing to help us. we had a colt last year with one blue eye, very interesting marks and a large white dot on the belly. we tested this horse but as it looks like the lipizzaner paints belong to the splashed whites. all other paint genes are ascertained and the result was NO.
we found out, that most of the paints are coming out of favory sarda. and if parents have this stallion in the pedigree, this blue eyes return cumulative . very interesting.
In 2004 a stallion with one blue eye was born in Lipica, Conversano Torysa I Very rare, because this never occurred in the last decades in Lipica. But it is understandably though, because of his genealogy: his dam came from.... Topolcianky!
AntwortenLöschenSomehow, if special colors or features appear within the Lipizzaner breed, often the Slovakian National Stud Topolcianky is involved. (But you know that, because your "blue-eyes" had the same background !)
Although it was a nice and correct stallion, this deviant feature was not desired in Lipica, so he was sold. Sold to..... Dr.Andrea Dobretsberger, the wife of the stud manager of Piber! She wanted to use him for driving sport competition. But unfortunately he appeared not to be the ideal horse for this purpose, so they sold them to friends in Switzerland.
If K-H has still his catalogue of the Lipica selections, you may find him, I suppose.
thanks atjan. i know about this stallion, sure. kh really liked him and on the video he looked great anyway. we try to "re-create" by free will a "maybe-paint". i sold the colt last year with the option, that he has to cover roma (s. perla x riposada) in 2012. s. perla has three times f. sarda in his pedigree, riposada had two blue eyes- now the foal with this belly-dot... we will see, what happens. maybe we can call back history, maybe we don't have any signs at all. roma (with two blue eyes, brown colour) had a foal last year without any marks. sigh.. aint easy, i guess ;-)
AntwortenLöschenalso one lab in germany is interested in the results. so we have to sit and wait.
the blue eyes are also coming back after two generations without signs. that what we know. and , as i already said: it happens, if there is too much f. sarda inside the ped.
I have quickly glanced at the pedigree of C. Mariposa and I do not see Favory Sarda. Maybe a common ancestor can be found? He has a mix of lineage with recent (first 5 generations) tracings to Lipica, Piber (majority), Hostau, Pusztaszer, Babolna and Lipik. I will email you his pedigree. It is also known that both his sire and grandsire have the dark recessive gene.
AntwortenLöschenMy Lipizzaner filly, Quiana, has a partial blue/white eye. It is just a sliver of white/blue partially along the top of her eye. People debate whether or not it is hereditary. Someone who knows Lipizzaners said it was from an injury in utero. Whatever the case, I will be glad to send on her pedigree.
AntwortenLöschengreat ! ;)
AntwortenLöschen@stcloudlipizzans: thank you for the pedigreee, lisa!
AntwortenLöschenhave a look:
c. mima - mima - calcedona - f. xii beja - f xi bora - f. vii ancona - f. vi gratiosa - f.sarda (there he is ^^) ;
and now have a look at mariposa:
3 arva is also a daughter of f. vii ancona - f. vi gratiosa - f. sarda (and there he is again ^^).
Calcedona -- right, she's in Fionna's too. So they go back to F. Sarda, eh? Neat :)
AntwortenLöschenand another two times: f. viii also on both sides. fviii - f vii - f. vi - f. sarda . so 4 times on the first look. i will enter fionna's ped into out programm tomorrow. so i don't have to look by hand. ain't it interesting?
AntwortenLöschenAh-ha, that would be "724 Favory Sarda". Using all the information I have in our database I show that he is in C. Mariposa's pedigree 35 times between the 7th and 12th generations. This gives him a Coefficient of Relationship of approximately 11% - this is a measure of how closely related a horse is to a certain ancestor.
AntwortenLöschenVery! She has a full brother, too. I think he's still a stallion. No idea if he has a blue eye or no.
AntwortenLöschenriposada -- Fionna's eye is like Quiana's. I'll post a pic.
AntwortenLöschen@Eileen: since I am sure inquiring minds will want to know, Fionna has "724 Favory Sarda" 29 times in her pedigree between the 7th and 12th generations. This gives a COR of approximately 10%. As always, this data should only be considered a tool at looking at pedigrees and the limitations understood.
AntwortenLöschen29 times???? Good gosh!
AntwortenLöschenCan you check Quiana?
I've posted a picture of her in the Photo area: http://horsesanddressage.multiply.com/photos/album/163/Fionna_Pluto_Triesta_x_Canissa-10_
Seeing if I can shorten that to a clickable image:
ROFL! Making smaller . . .heh, guess not. Lemme know if you want me to remove the pic :D
lol - nice size. 29 times? woah that's a lot of blue ^^
AntwortenLöschenhow many foals did mariposa have ? do you know that?
our riposada (two blue eyes) had (sigh) only four. she died very very early. two of them had two blue eyes; two had none. one of the non-blue-mares is still over here, she is 15 and pregnant with foal n°10. three foals hat ONE blue eye, 7 none. one of riposada's foals has been sold. she had three foals, all of them brown, no blue eyes. weired ^^
the first great-grandchilds from riposada from another "no-blue-eyes" sold mare are born now- one two blue eyes, the other one one. invasion... (but they are good to sell over here.lol). the one with the two blue eyes was very hard line-breeding, so it did not take me any wonder.
( a lot of one and two.. i am sorry ^^)
Sorry! You want me to delete it? She's so pretty :D
AntwortenLöschenno no - don't! please
AntwortenLöschenOkay :D She's my heart, this one.
AntwortenLöschenWe have a "Quianna" b. 2006 (M. II Favoressa V x Quientessa). She has "724 Favory Sarda" 26 times between the 8th and the 11th generation. She has a COR of approx. 9%.
AntwortenLöschenSo then a question becomes, "Is it unusual for a horse to have F. Sarda that many times in a pedigree or is he a common ancestor throughout the breed?"
This would be a large project with enough data to be able to really look at that, but just a quick check shows that the colt we bred two years ago from Piber-bred parents has "724 Favory Sarda" 29 times in his pedigree between the 7th and 13th generations. He does not have any blue in his eyes. . . My mare Alsea (shown in profile pic) who is a mix of Piber and Tempel lines has "724 Favory Sarda" 25 times in her pedigree. She also does not have any blue.
Data should always be looked at in perspective. The only thing I would conclude at this point is that 724 Favory Sarda appears to be well represented in the Lipizzan population.
the research laboratories are trying to find it out. there are innumerable aspects for reasons. on one side there is the cream gene, that might account for the blue eyes, on the other side the paints in bred at the beginning. Those genes are recessive in lipizzaner bred. i guess, we all do not know enough about biology and the Cr-Gene. But from time to time those genes clash. and if two Cr meet, we have the blue eyes. As far as i know, pluto presciana has not been used in bred, but the mare presciana has to be a carrier of the gene too, because one of her sons had blue eyes. so both parents have to carrier the gene. favory montenegra has been used, so both parents are carriers too. f. sarda has been used a lot. masses of favorys belong to him. so the "chance/risk" to get blue eyes seems to be much higher. this c. torsya atjan spoke about, also carries the genes with f. vii ancona on fathers side and presciana on mothers side. interesting, that his motherlines belongs to the same line as our riposada did. there must be another blue-eyes-gene-carrier, we don't know about at the moment.
AntwortenLöschenthat's why we said, we want to test what happens, if two horses with this genes come together directly. would the foal get the blue eyes and the would this gene be homozygous? it does not have to appear anyway.
Conversano Torysa I (called "Torysa", born April 18th, 2004):
AntwortenLöschenBecause of his one blue eye (the right eye by the way) Torysa mutated in Lipica from stallion to gelding. Lipica sold Torysa in 2007 to Dr. Andrea Dobretsberger, the gelding was foreseen by her for driving sport competition (coach) purposes, as Andrea is part of the Austrian National Team.
Due to lack of time to train the young Torysa to a European Championship level (Andrea had at that time already 8 horses), I was lucky enough in 2008 to buy Torysa. Torysa lives now in Zurich, Switzerland, and is trained in the classical-baroque way.
In 2010 Torysa was additionally trained a couple of month by Klaus Krischke, Chief Rider of the "Fürstliche Hofreitschule in Bückeburg (Germany) (www.die-hofreitschule.de). This training will be continued in the next years. We all are very happy with this nice, correct, gentle and talented horse. Torysa is absolutely worth the effort and money to bring him to a decent classical-baroque level.
More information regarding blue eyed horses:
Diana Krischke is studying horses at the University of Münster (Germany). At the University of Münster scientists are investigating the background of blue eyed horses. Torysa is now part this scientific investigation and "donated" his DNA. At the moment the investigation is ongoing, hence no results are available yet.
In 2009 I was visiting Lipica and I was very impressed by the premises, the National stud, the people and above all to meet Conversano Capriola XIV, the father of Conversano Torysa I. Conversano Capriola XIV (born February 22nd, 1989) father was Conversano Wera III, his mother Capriola XIV. Conversano Torysa's mother is Torysa (from Topolcianky). I am more than happy if somebody can give me any information and pictures from her.