State Studs:
registered Lipizzans breeding stock
Simbata de Jos 238 83
Beclean 208 67
Szilvásvárad 232 77
Piber + 231 76
Spanish Riding School 70
Lipica 209 59
Monterotondo 179 59
Đakovo 166 56
Topoľčianky 127 42
Vucijak 105 35
Karadjordevo 75 25
private Organisations:
USA 600
Netherlands 300
Belgium 210
Great Britain 200
Germany 170
Croatia 150
Austria 150
France 100
Hungary 80
Sweden 75
Australia 60
Slovenia 50
South Africa 50
Denmark 40
Yugoslavia 40
Switzerland 40
Norway 35
Romania 35
Czech Republic 25
Population worldwide 1999: 4250
I look forward how Atjan is going to explain that list!
AntwortenLöschenThere is not much to explain, actually.
AntwortenLöschenIn the years 1999-2000 the LIF (Lipizzan International Federation) started - within the frame of the INCO-Copernicus Project - an inventory among its members (which are all national Lipizzaner studbook associations in the world).
The main question to these organizations was: "What is the number of purebred Lipizzaner horses which you have available for breeding within your organization?". These are the results, sent in 13 years ago by these studbook associations. No more, no less.
The figures of the state studs were a result of the INCO Copernicus-Project
Why this question? Did any discussion raise?
"which are all national Lipizzaner studbook associations in the world"
AntwortenLöschenNot absolutely, Mr Hop, as you know...
Some associations are not members
"Why this question? Did any discussion raise?"
You should have a look on Andreas' group on ace Book...
He will most certainly giev you access if you wish!
Please beware that we are discussing about the situation of 1999! The LIF did have an inventory copy of the French and Swiss studbook as well, in order to check the figures!
AntwortenLöschenTo my opinion Facebook or Multiply is not the correct mean to discuss about such a topic in this way. Or about a minor subject in a large publication of the Austrian Academy of Science.
AntwortenLöschenAnd again.... there is nothing to discuss about.... These figures were simply sent in by the studbook associations.
Don't shoot the messenger.;-)
That's what I thought Atjan and yes, there might be much more registered and even branded Lipizzans in some associations but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are pure within the rules and regulations of the LIF.
AntwortenLöschenWell, that was not the case actually. From the perspective of the LIF-regulations, you have .... Lipizzaners... and other horses ;-)
AntwortenLöschenThe term "purebred Lipizzaner" is double: a horse is a Lipizzaner or he is not. Per definition a Lipizzaner is always "purebred", otherwise it is not allowed to bear the name "Lipizzaner"
The genealogical demands are very strict and clear.
A halfbred or crossbred Lipizzaner does not exist, only a Lipizzaner crossbred, which is a horse with some Lipizzaner blood (even when this might be 99% Lipizzaner blood, it still remains a crossbred!)
The principal question of the LIF questionnaire of 1999 towards the national private Lipizzaner breeder associations was: "How many purebred horses do you have available within your studbook organization, in order to be able to maintain the Lipizzaner breed?" This means adult horses, registered in the studbook, approved for breeding.
So this also meant, that foals, 1-3year olds, geldings, non-approved stallions and/or mares were excluded in the counting of 1999. And of course crossbreds.
I understand that part, but that means you counted just the registered pure breeding stock with the private organizations, with the state studs you counted all, even the foals, 1-3 year olds and geldings, right? Otherwise there wouldn't be figures like 231 in Piber!
AntwortenLöschenDoes the LIF have a pre-studbook or a book where the register "crossbreed Lipizzans"?
AntwortenLöschenNo, the LIF does not keep a studbook, the national member organizations (the national Lipizzaner studbook associations and state studs) do. They are primary responsible for their own studbook keeping and studbook regulations on national level.
AntwortenLöschenThe LIF tried to organize the composition of a register in a online database (the ILR) with all Lipizzaner horses, registered by its members. This ILR is operational, hosted by Lipica.
So it depends on the national studbooks, how they are organized. The LIF always advised their member organizations to have a crossbred register (just to prove in public that a horse is not purebred), but is not interested in those horses, as they can not maintain the Lipizzaner breed.
That is mainly correct (the geldings were excluded). It was just a matter of interpretation of the primary question: "How many Lipizzaners do you have available for maintaining the breed".
AntwortenLöschenPlease note that the focus of the INCO-Copernicus Project was the genotypical and phenotypical aspects of the base of the Lipizzaner breed: the population of the traditional Lipizzaner state studs in Europe
Due to organizational and costs aspects, the horses of the national private breeders associations around the world could not be included in this scientific project.
Nevertheless it was desirable and necessary to pay attention to this part of the Lipizzaner population as well. That is the reason why the LIF started this small inquiry and counting, in order to estimate the world population.
This estimation was also necessary in those times in order to determine if the Lipizzaner was an endangered breed. According to the international standards this means: less 5,000 species within a breed available for breeding means endangered. So the Lipizzaner race was endangered in 1999.
I could imagine though, after the revival of the private breeding in Central European countries during the last decade, these figures are completely different at this moment !
Just a small extra remark on this: beware that every individual member-organization of the LIF (i.e. the national Lipizzaner studbook associations, and the state studs) all have different studbook regulations, with different perspectives when a horse is "available for breeding". This influenced the individual figures, as quoted in the head of this topic.
AntwortenLöschenSome studbooks only allow stallions and mares to reproduce after they are approved by the studbook-jury, and are tested veterinary and in work.
Other studbooks are not that strict, and allow every adult mare to be bred with. Some studbooks not even select their stallions, and allow every stallion to be used as a breeding stallion. So the results of the inventory counting are highly influenced by this. So please do not compare these figures to eachother. It is, as we put it in Dutch: comparing apples to pears...
Again: these figures are the results of the primary question: "How many purebred horses do you have available within your studbook organization, in order to be able to maintain the Lipizzaner breed?"
Which private organizations are doing vets and ability testing?
AntwortenLöschenI do not have topic information on that, as I am not the secretary of the LIF-Breeding Committee anymore! But perhaps other H&D readers have information about their home country.
AntwortenLöschenIn Slovenia, ZRLS does conformation evaluations. Vet testing and ability testing is defined in the breeding programme, but to my knowledge ability testing is not performed, for vet testing I don't know (but I think it is performed).
AntwortenLöschenSouth Africa does, Temple Farms do .....
AntwortenLöschenHm, these "offical" data are not satisfactory, for me. This is not the actual number of horses in Croatia 1999/ 2000 , the first, missing Lipik horses, and Lipik state stud, why?
AntwortenLöschenOk ,Atjan you mention information over INCO-Copernicus Project,I understud, but I think we need make revision this number of horses.
Lipik horses may have been counted in another group, country??
Today Croatia have cca 1300 Lipizzans !