I have a three questions in regards to this movie and Elaine Hutchison tells me that there are some real experts on here :)
1. At the end of the movie, when they are performing in Vienna, I could *swear* the person riding the darkest grey Lipizzaner, right behind Robert Taylor, was a woman. Her chest was rather accentuated in a few angles. I also saw another rider that appeared to be a woman as well, but it's harder to pinpoint as he or she was on a white Lip. Were there women riders in the movie?
2. In this same performance, I noted at least two riders appeared to have classical seats and could have been from the SRS. Did any of the riders appear in the movie?
3. Last question: does anyone have a list of the horses that appeared in the Patton and/or the Vienna performance? I would dearly love to see if any of my mare's ancestors were in that movie.
Thanks!
Eileen
1. & 2. Most of the riders in the movie performances were from the SRS. The School performed under the direction of Podhajsky. The only people appearing on horses who were not SRS riders were Robert Taylor and Eddie Albert and even they only appeared in close ups. In other Quadrille shots, Podhajsky led the School riders. You can tell the difference in horses because Robert Taylor rode a stallion whose mane and tail were already white. Podhajsky rode a younger horse whose mane and tail were still grey.
AntwortenLöschenRe #3. In his various books, Podhajsky never mentions which horses performed for Patton or in the performance on return to Vienna. He also never mentions which stallions were in the movie. In fact, in all his books, I only remember having seen 2 paragraphs which even mention the movie. IOW, Podhajsky doesn't spend a lot of dpace on the movie in any of his books.
You can verify my comments about Podhajsky and Taylor from photos about the making of the movie and related captions in Podhajsky's "Das Grosse Buch der Spanischen Hofreitschule". If you don't read German, don't let the title put you off. The book caontains both German and English text.
Hi Eileen, I can answer some of your questions.
AntwortenLöschenSome of the Riders & Stallions appearing in the movie are:
Lauscha Rider & Siglavy Morella (Courette)
Podhajsky and Pluto Brezia In hand Courette.
Josef Riedler & Pluto Presciana I Capriole Rider
Podhajsky & Neapolitano Santuzza. Karl was also in the movie and Podhajsky stated N. Santuzza was the best horse at the Capriole but was never jumped under saddle.
Hans Irbinger on N. Ancona (brown)
Irbinger rode Favory Brezia in the Levade.
In the quadrille Podhajsky wrote 2 horses M. Alea I and C. Soja. In the lead. Watch the mane color change.
The second horse behind Podhajsky is S. Bona (beautiful young grey at the time) & rider Josef Riedler.
The third rider is Bachinger on Pluto Wanda.
Podhajsky used to describe the horses in the quadrille should look like "A Chain of Pearls".
I don't believe ANY women were riders in the quadrille or at the school. All the riders were SRS Riders. No extras unless it was Robert Taylor doing some very simple riding in the closeups. There are still photos of Podhajsky on the ground with Taylor on a Lipizzaner in the quadrille.
All the horses listed above were in the Miracle of the White Stallions movie. I am still looking for information on the Patton Performance. Podhajsky did ride N. Africa in the Patton Performance.
In My Horses, My Teachers, Podhajsky writes of riding Pluto Theodorosta in the performance for General Patton.
AntwortenLöschenand after pas de deux, school above the grounds and quadrille Podhajsky made solo performance on Neapolitano Africa
AntwortenLöschenjuft finished reading this book, you would not believe how hard it was to get it here (out of print, no reprints planned)
Thank you for that added help. The photo we all have seen with Podhajsky saluting Patton, Podhajsky is riding N. Africa. Postcard photos are available of the riders and horses listed above.
AntwortenLöschenThe movie is one I can watch over and over again. Drives my husband crazy when I tell him of the horse changes because he can't see the differance.
Marcia, where is the info about the horses from? It's so interesting!
AntwortenLöschenI had no idea that Podhajsky actually rode in the performances or was involved in the movie. I do need to get this book. What was his take on those terrible red uniforms? As for the SRS riders -- one of them looked amazingly like Eddie Albert, then. Rode like him too. I could have sworn it was Albert in the beginning of the quadrille when the went into a turn on the haunches.
AntwortenLöschenThese are great responses and I need to go over my mare's pedigree.
AntwortenLöschenThose who have said that Podhajsky rode so and so for Patton -- is that in the movie or in real life or both? I was under the impression that the Patton performance was filmed in the USA. If so, did they fly Podhajsky's Lipizzaners over here?
My apologies then. That red uniform did "bend" in a few girly areas on a couple of riders :)
AntwortenLöschenEileen
Andreas, Thanks to you and everybody involved, I was able to identify these postcards that I have been collecting for years. I don't believe it was ever written down about the horses and riders during the making of the movie. I could just kick myself in the butt for not asking Podhajsky for this information in 1964 when I wrote him. I was only 13 at the time and it never occurred to me I would NEED it.
AntwortenLöschenSomebody took photos during the filming of the movie. I am going to assume, the photos were taken behind the cameras during the performance itself. Because the horses are moving and performing. Andreas I have maybe 60 different postcards from the movie. How they were identified were you and many others who have helped me over the years. Did you ever see the platform used to film the opening of the performance? It was as wide as the school hall. Really! The wheels were on the sides of the hall. This scene shows Robert Taylor in the lead. There is a interesting moment when the beautiful young stallion spooks at the camera that is in the plants on the ground filming. The rider is perfect in collecting him again and most people would not notice it. When you were in Houston TX, a young stallion also spooked at a corner, I didn't count that against him. He was in a strange place.
I can make jpg's and send them all to Romy if you wish to see all of them. I keep finding more and more on ebay and in Germany I don't have. I would love to share them.
Eddie Albert is at the end of the line as you can see. But look at his hands. He is simply sitting on this stallion. His hands are on the stallions back and not doing anything but sitting. He is having no contact with the stallion. It is a quick section of film.. Filming was stopped, he was put on the horse, filmed. Stopped and removed. Eddie Albert would never ride in a performance. He is not good enough. Robert Taylor took personal lessons from Podhajsky before, and during the shooting of the movie. I think I have even seen a photo of Podhajsky showing Taylor how to salute! (Not the Hitler salute, the one up to your head).
AntwortenLöschenPodhajsky rode for Patton in St Martin's. None of the Miracle of the White Stallions was filmed in the USA. The entire movie was filmed in Vienna and the surrounding areas. What you see is the REAL SRS. The stables, the office everything. You must get this movie. We can identify stallions that Podhajsky rode by photographs of the time. Many of Podhajsky's books he was kind even to identify the stallions for us.
AntwortenLöschenMarcia
AntwortenLöschenI would LOVE to see those postcards!!!!!
Marcia
AntwortenLöschenFascinating! I had thought that the Patton performance had been filmed in the USA. Thank you!
This question is for anybody who was in Vienna at the time they were filming this Disney movie. By the way, the TV version of this movie was called Flight of the White Stallions.
AntwortenLöschenQuestion: at the beginning of this movie after the introductions Robert Taylor starts speaking about the school and the film cuts to the Nazi Flag. Because I was raised in California most of my life I spent a great deal of time in Hollywood and many stables chasing the movie horses around. I saw an interview that Clint Eastwood made regarding the movie Where Eagles Dare I think. He talks about filming in this small town in Germany, where they used people from the town as extras. Many of these people survived and told Clint about there survival. The one thing the people didn't like was seeing the Flag flying in there town again. They said it reminded them of the past.
So did anybody see the filming of this movie?
Postcards will be coming soon.
Marcia,
AntwortenLöschenCross referencing my mare's pedigree with your list -- I have (on her Piber side) Conversano Soja. Neat!
Wow That is wonderful, he bred on. I just sent Romy postcards of C. Soja. You really need to get the movie, as he performs alot in it.
AntwortenLöschenC. Soja is seven generations back and I checked the dam and sire of my C. Soja against Podhajsky's to make sure. Same one!
AntwortenLöschenI do have the movie :) I've had it for a few years and it never crossed my mind to find out anything about the horses and riders. Weird, 'cause that's something I would want to know :)
Direct line is:
AntwortenLöschenC. Soja x Brezica II -->Brenta -->Neapolitano IV Brenta --> Neapolitano IX Nautika --> 386 Neapolitano Brezova --> Canissa-10 --> Fionna
She also has, six generations out, C. Bonavista (C. Soja's sire) x 19 Soja (Alba I-171) --> 203 Conversano IV Soja -->Brezova --> and repeat the first line I listed.
Interesting.
YouTube has the last part of the movie, the Vienna performance, online if anyone wants to watch just that:
AntwortenLöschenhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-xYSsLC30w
I'm rewatching it . . . YES! I see the mane change color right at the beginning. Neat!
Marcia,
AntwortenLöschenWhich of the two horses is C. Soja? The darker mane?
Indeed C.Soja is the one with the darker manes.
AntwortenLöschenNice stories, everybody !!
I have a copy of the official program of the performance of the SRS for General Patton somewhere. I will look for it, and make a version in jpg. We can post it then.
Thank you! That would be so neat :D
AntwortenLöschenMarcia's pictures are posted in "Spanische Hofreitschule Foto's"
AntwortenLöschenatjanh wrote on Jan 4
AntwortenLöschen"I have a copy of the official program of the performance of the SRS for General Patton somewhere. I will look for it, and make a version in jpg"
I know I have it somewhere... but I could not find it yesterday. But... what I did find is an official program of a SRS-performance of the 4th of July 1946 in Wels (AT), in honor of the US Army.
I made some copies of the pages in jpg. I will send them to Romy, so she can post them in her Photo-item with ancient SRS-pictures.
Atjan
I made a new item of it myself !
AntwortenLöschenAtjan
Thank you, Atjan! :)
AntwortenLöschenYes, the Disney movie was indeed filmed totally in Austria. The opening scenes were shot at the Piber stud farm. The Vienna scenes were filmed in the SRS portions of the Hofburg complex (arena, SRS stables, Podhajsky's apartment - check out the paintings and other art work on the walls - it's the real deal!). The only portion of the movie that was not shot in the actual locations was the St Martin section of the movie. That was filmed at the Hermes-Villa in the Lainzer Tiergarten in the Vienna Woods rather than in the village of St Martin.
AntwortenLöschenLast year, I wrote a series of articles comparing the movie with what Podhajsky and Col Reed wrote in books. I wrote the articles for the Dressage Unlimited website. It is still on line at http://dressage.com/SRS/TrueMiracle/truemiracletoc.htm if anyone is interested in reading about the differences between reality and the movie... As I said in the articles, the movie is not really a documentary and it only follows the broad outline of events and the general sense of the difficulties the School faced. Many of the facts differ throughout the movie...
John, Thank you very much for all the information regarding the movie. In defense of the Disney Corp in ignoring certain facts, the movie runs nearly 2 hours and honestly, there was just not enough time to add many of these facts. When you add a fact, and then film it, this takes alot more money. I can tell you that nearly 60 hours were filmed during the Making of the movie. We only get to see 2 hours of that footage. Can you imagine what might be in that vault? I would love to see it. I am told there is about 20 hours of footage of the riding in the hall. Imagine, 20 hours of footage of just performances. The movie only shows 2 different stallions ridden by Podhajsky, so the editors had access to at least 2 whole performances, yet only used 7 minutes!
AntwortenLöschenYou did a great, great job. As we know, it is very hard to be completely accurate at times, but all and all Disney did a GREAT job in telling a story that my Dad never even mentioned, until the movie was released.
"That was filmed at the Hermes-Villa in the Lainzer Tiergarten in the Vienna Woods". Thank you so very much for this information. The Disney Studios could not even give me this information. By the time I started to ask questions, the original people who helped with the production were gone.
Your detective work is outstanding!
Marcia,
AntwortenLöschenIt's not just that they ignored certain things that irks me. It's that they portrayed some things totally wrong even though they had been told the straight story. For example, they show the rescue of the breeding herd and liberation of POW's as happening after the performance for Patton. In fact, those events had happened 9 days BEFORE the performance and Patton knew it. Of course, their version includes a battle between Col Reed's troops and some German SS troops. Would such a battle have happened after the surrender? So, while the Disney version is good entertainment it's definitely inaccurate in many respects. In fact, Col Reed wrote in a letter included in Handler's 400 year anniversary book "The Spanish Riding School" that he told the Disney people they had the order of events wrong concerning the rescue and they said that their version was better show business.
Thanks for the compliment but, honestly, anyone who has ever been to the Hermes-Villa would recognize the buildings. In the series I wrote, I included some photos of the Hermes-Villa - one facade of the castle, the portico where the XX Corps troops arrive in "St Martin", and the exterior of the stables. You should recognize most of the photos from the movie scenes...
Do we have time-period photos of where the horses were kept in St. Martin?
AntwortenLöschenJohn, I have NEVER been to Vienna, I live in the States. "You should recognize most of the photos from the movie scenes". How can I recognize a place I have never seen? "anyone who has ever been to the Hermes-Villa would recognize the buildings".
AntwortenLöschenI am very sorry that I do not recognize a place I have never been. I regret that I responded to you. My apologies.
Marcia...
AntwortenLöschenSorry to have been unclear! Of course, you could not recognize a place you have never been. I meant that, because you have seen the movie, you should recognize the photos in the article I refered to - here's a link to the page with the photos I mentioned http://dressage.com/SRS/TrueMiracle/05schloss.htm
Again I apologize for the confusion. I also apologize if my previous message offended... I meant no insult to you! I was merely trying to say that it didn't take any special detective work on my part because I had been to Hermes Villa. Anybody else who had been there and seen the movie could have told you that part of the movie was filmed there.
Does anyone else know of any Lipizzans in North America with C. Soja in their line? I have no idea where my LANA CD is.
AntwortenLöschen
AntwortenLöschenTwo Lipizzaner stallions at the barn I ride at have C.Soja 5 generations back. They are
Pluto II Dixana and his full brother, Pluto II Dixana II. There are quite a few Lipizzaners on the farm, others may also have C.Soja in their background. I will find out if you would like.
Romy
Ah, perfect. No, that's okay, Romy. My mare was evaluated at 3 years and I'm afraid that Dr. O gave her a, "not a traditional Lipizzaner!" comment :D She was approved for breeding, but only just. I had not really entertained the thought of breeding her, but would change my mind if it meant keeping the bloodline out there. With both Dixana's out there, then there's no need to worry about it.
AntwortenLöschenThere was a woman from Switzerland (Dressage Rider) riding in the SHR, when Podhajsky was the leader of the school, perhaps......
AntwortenLöschenThere were more than one female pupils at the SRS, but they didn't do performances or movies.
AntwortenLöschenBy head: in Podhajsky's autobiography "Ein Leben für die Lipizzaner" you can find one (maybe more) picture of him in front of the St.Martin castle.
AntwortenLöschenFurtheron there are some pictures left of the brood mares during their stay in Wimsbach (1946-1952).
203 Conversano IV Soja was the sire to
AntwortenLöschen- 340 Conversano Sagana and
- 344 Conversano Alda
Both were used as breeding stallion in Piber.
Conversano Sagana was used quite a lot, and therefore can be found in many pedigrees. He delivered 7 breeding mares for Piber. His sons C.Toscana I, C.Amata I, C.Undine I, C.Toscana III and C.Calcedona all reached the highest levels in the SRS. Also Andreas' former Long Reign stallion C.Isabella was a son of C.Sagana (as far as I remember)
C.Sagana's grandson C.Sessana was breeding stallion in 2009. His foals are soon expected!
Conversano Alda delivered C.Corvina and C.Amata II for the SRS. And three breeding mares for Piber.
So the chances are quite big, that through his progeny, Conversano Soja did reach many pedigrees around the world!
Thank you, Atjan. We apparently have several stallions in North America that trace back to C. Soja.
AntwortenLöschenConversano Toscana III went to Florida !
AntwortenLöschenSee: http://www.rollingacreslipizzans.com/stallion.html
O_O
AntwortenLöschenOooooooooo. Is his pedigree in the IFL database? Piber? I'd love to see it.
Never mind. I found it. Hrmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I'd love to see him in the flesh. Maybe I *will* breed my mare.
AntwortenLöschenOkay, need a little clarification, please. Someone just emailed me with the birthdate of C. Soja and if that is he in the movie -- which was released in 1963 -- he would have been 41 years old. That's old, even for a Lip, and he still has a grey mane?
AntwortenLöschenThe info is:
*L. Conversano Soja born 1922* at the then Italian-controlled Lipizza.
Sire: Conversano Austria b. 1911, Lipizza
Dam: Soja, b. 1910 Lipizza
Note that the sire is not Conversano Bonavista. Now, Podhajsky writes in his book, "My Horses, My Teachers":
. . . two more school stallions whom I had trained completely to the highest standard, Conversano Soja and Maestoso Flora. Conversano Soja was one of the few sons that Conversano Bonavista, the favorite stallion of head rider . . .
Then we have 203 Conversano IV Soja whose sire WAS Conversano Bonavista:
*203 Conversano IV Soja* born 1952 at Wimsbach.
Sire: 359 Conversano Bonavista, b.1925 at Piber
Dam: 19 Soja, b. 1945 at Hostau
He'd be about 11 years old.
Which is it? Or is it a stallion we don't have any data on here in North America?
Puzzled!
Eileen
Hi Eileen,
AntwortenLöschenThere is absolutely no doubt about this !!
The stallion in the SRS, as seen in the Disney-movie under Col.Podhajsky was Conversano Soja (also known in the studbooks as 203 Conversano IV Soja), born in 1952 - according to my data in Piber.
The other one was definitely a completely different horse, indeed born in Lipizza, which was Italian property from 1919-1945.
I checked: indeed there was a mare 753 Soja, born in imperial Lippiza in 1910. In 1919 she went to Italian Lipizza. Most likely she was the dam of that other Conversano Soja.
Indeed Conversano Austria (Lippiza, 1911) was a breeding stallion in Italian Lipizza in those times.
It often occurs, due to the traditional naming system within the Lipizzan race, that completely different horses receive the same name. That is the reason why we not only notate the name of the horse, but also its place and year of birth. And all possible additional available studbook numbers.
That is also the reason for me to notate the place of birth differently, if the "owner" of the studfarm changed.
Lippiza= the imperial stud, 1580-1915 - privately owned by the Habsburg family.
Lipizza or Ital.Lipizza= the stud, owned by the Italian ministry of defense, 1919-1943
Lipica= the stud, owned by the Yugoslavian (later: Slovenian) state.(since 1946)
Only acting like this, you will know in which original studbooks you should look into, in order to find the original data.
Atjan
Hi, Atjan
AntwortenLöschenNo wonder it's so difficult to pinpoint which horse is which ;) You have to be a history detective to figure it out.
Why doesn't the SRS use the numbers in the horses' names?
What happened between 1915 and 1919? WWI?
AntwortenLöschenAnd 1943 - 1946?
To those that are involved with breeding -- I checked out the pedigree of 532 - CONVERSANO TOSCANA III, the SRS stallion that is in Florida now. Toscana was born in 1992. His sire was 340 - CONVERSANO SAGANA and he was born in 1967??? He was 25 when he sired Conversano Toscana III? Wow.
AntwortenLöschenAnyhow, my question is this Toscana's sire of sire was 203 - CONVERSANO IV SOJA and my mare has this same C. Soja back 4 generations. They're too closely related for breeding, no?
Thank you Andreas for re- posting the fascinating article on the US Army's involvement with preserving horses at the end of WWII, I read recently that the US Army turned out horses from the remount service onto the Nevada range, after the war--and I have been wondering about the ancestry of the mustangs currently involved in the huge US government round-up. Pure romantic speculation on my part--but I enjoy thinking that maybe there are mustangs whose ancestors were part of the group of Hungarian Lipizzans, thoroughbreds, and arabians the US Army shipped back to the US. I hope the rounded-up mustangs find homes as riding horses, rather than some of the sad alternatives . . .
AntwortenLöschenWould be great to get more info about this Mary!
AntwortenLöschenAny source?
I think it was on the Bureau of Land Management website, where I saw that the US Army remounts were turned out on the Nevada range to roam with the wild horses-- I will look back and see if I can find the webpage and e-mail it to you. But as I said, that is really romantic speculation on my part. Knowing a little bit how governement bureaucracies work-- it would not surprise me, at all, if the US Army expended the effort and expense to bring European horses home to use as remounts only to set them free with the mustangs.
AntwortenLöschenMary,
AntwortenLöschenI read that the Lipizzan remounts were kept at the few remaining Forts. They weren't let go. Lemme see if I can source that again. The Calvary has a web site where they kept track of that.
". . .The first Lipizzans to be privately owned and to be brought to the United States were brought over in 1937 by the Austrian born opera singer, MADAME MARIA JERITZA. Jeritza brought her two stallions and 2 mares to California and her husband (Winfield Sheehan) produced a movie in 1938 with the Lipizzan PLUTO II-1 and Neapolitano Conversana (known as "Emperor") based on Felix Salten's book "Florian." Then in 1945, General Patton brought back from the Austrians, the stallion PLUTO XX and several mares. When the Army disbanded its calvary, they and their offspring were auctioned off at the Kellog Remount Station in 1949. Some went to circuses. "
AntwortenLöschenThat is from Laura Wiener-Smolka's web site. She's a pretty well-known breeder/owner in the USA. Link to page cited:
http://www.lipizzan.com/about.html
I do know we discussed it on the Lipizzaner list and I'm pretty sure that those few that were not auctioned off were kept at Fort Riley. I'll search the list.
In 1915 all breedingstock of the imperial stud of Lippiza was evacuated to Laxenburg (near Vienna). The youth (1-3 years old) was transferred to Kladrub.
AntwortenLöschenIn 1919 the imperial herd in Laxenburg was divided between Italy [new owner of Lip(p)iz(z)a] and Austria.
The Italian part returned to their original stables in Lipizza (Italian spelling) The Austrian part went to Piber in 1920. The youngsters in Kladrub were transferred to Stud Topolcianky in 1921 (nowadays the Slovakian state stud)
In 1943 the Germans ordered the Lipizzaner horses from (Italian) Lipizza to Hostau. (together with the Lipizzaners from Piber, Demir Kapija and Krusedol). In 1945 all horses were taken into Bavaria by the American army (the Miracle of the White Stallions...).
In 1946 the Yugoslavian government restarted the Lipizzaner breeding in the former imperial and Italian stud at Lippiza/Lipizza. According to the Slavic spelling, the stud was named "Lipica". (The pronunciation remained the same : the Slavic 'c' sounds like the German 'z' or the Italian 'zz': as "ts")
But the SRS does!
AntwortenLöschenAs soon as a young Lipizzaner stallion has entered the SRS, he is registered in the register of the ridingschool:
Conversano Soja became '203 Conversano Soja' in Vienna.
I do not know exactly, when they started this register. Perhaps in 1919 after the collapse of the Habsburg empire.
At this moment the numbering in this SRS-register has overdrawn the 600.
In the daily use within the ridingschool, this additional number is not that important. And also not looking so 'elegant'. Therefore those numbers are not used in the official programs.
Since 203 Conversano Soja was used as a breeding stallion in Piber, he became 203 Conversano IV Soja. He was the 4th stallion of the Conversano-dynasty since the start of the Lipizzaner breeding in Piber since 1920 - therefore roman IV.
(By the way: During his time as director, Dr. Oulehla ceased this adding of the Roman figures)
In order to make it more confusing: every traditional Lipizzaner stud has its own system of numeration. And sometimes, during history, a system within one of those studs changed.... Indeed you have to know something of the Lipizzaner history in a wide sense, in order not to be overwhelmed or confused...
That is where we depend on you, Atjan! In the maze of Lipizzaner history and pedigree's, you are the light at the end of the tunnel.
AntwortenLöschenRomy
No, this kind of relationship within the Lipizzaner breed can be seen more often.
AntwortenLöschenIf it concerns only a few, and only from within the 4th generation of the possible foal, then there won't be any risk of inbreeding problems at all.
Interesting thing is, that we can not trace how the US Army got those Hungarian Lipizzaners. They were definitely not in Hostau, and therefore also not in the herd which was taken from Hostau into Bavaria by the US Army !
AntwortenLöschenThe Hungarian Lipizzaners remained during the war-period in their studfarm in Bábolna. The US-Army never came in that area - Hungary was occupied by the Russian army.
Some of those Hungarian horses were later bought by Mr. Tempel Smith, and became founder horses -beside his imports from Piber- of his famous stud, Tempel Farms in Wadsworth, IL
Those interested can find some history of the US Army Quartermaster’s Remount Service online at http://www.qmfound.com/remount1.htm. The function of the Remount Service was to procure replacement horses and mules and train them for army use. Of course, this included riding animals for the Cavalry and officers but it also included pack animals and draft animals. Basically, the Remount Service maintained a so-called breeding program from 1919 to 1949. I say “so-called” because the Remount Service itself didn’t actually breed many foals. What they did was provide a number of stallion stations where local breeders could breed to good stallions for relatively low fees. Some local breeders made contracts with the Army to breed a specific number of horses and offer them to the Army. The Army wasn’t required to buy the horses but, in practice, they did buy a large percentage of them.
AntwortenLöschenThe number and locations of the stallion depots varied but there were only 6 remaining by 1949. Two of those 6 were in the east, Virginia and Kentucky. The others were in Texas, Colorado, Wyoming and California.
As to the breeds of riding stallions used at Remount Service, They were often Thoroughbreds or an American breed known as Morgan. In fact, the U.S. Army did maintain a Morgan breeding farm in the state of Vermont beginning in 1906. The horses were midsized (15 to 16 hands or 152 CM to 163 CM) and intended for Cavalry use.
Most of the Remount Service's blood stock and horses in training were sold at auction after the Remount Service was discontinued. The U.S. Army’s Morgan Farm was turned over to the Dept. of Agriculture. The Dept. of Agriculture distributed most of the Morgan breeding stock to universities in New England states: Vermont, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, and Connecticut. I don’t recall whether the universities in Maine and Rhode Island got any horses. Some horses were sold to private breeders. The University of Vermont also got the farm in Weybridge Vermont and continues to breed “government” families of Morgan horses.
That's the site I was looking for -- thank-you :D
AntwortenLöschenThanks roanart and Atjan-- I clicked around a little while, and found what appears to be an account by a US Quartermaster who says he was approached by people who hoped the Hungarian Lipizzans could be sheltered by the US Army as were the SRS Lipizzans-- that account is here:http://www.bluechromis.com/stan/retread/chapter13.html
AntwortenLöschenAnother US dressage website-- which I copied text from but then for some reason could not get back to, had the following info:
"At the end of World War II, European horses were considered "war booty" and shipped to the US. El Reno, Oklahoma, just west of Oklahoma City, was one of the designated dispersal points. When Patton snatched the Lipizzans out of Russian control, he didn't just snatch Lipizzans, he didn't have time to sort horses, he just took them all to the American zone. Wytez II, Arabian stallion was sold through the El Reno auction as were many European warmblood mares, geldings and stallions. For years after the auctions, through the 50s, Oklahoma horses just came out of the woodwork -- crosses of unknown parentage with the European "booty"."
I came across a few scholarly articles concerning the genetics of mustangs-- the remounts were turned out on the range from WWI through WWII-- but it is still only speculation on my part that any war booty horses were set free after WWII. Lots of articles talk in general talk about accounting for thoroughbred blood among the mustangs as ranchers or the US army setting fine horses free in order to improve the quality of the wild horses, which were rounded up for army use when needed. Did this happen after WWII? If it did, there may be a record somewhere, either in the archives of the biologists of the Bureua of Land Management, or the army,
All that said, I look at some of the pictures of mustangs up for adoption, and wonder.
Mary, what is it about the pictures you've seen that makes you wonder? The ones that I've seen, and there are a few on farms out here, look as close to a Lipizzaner as a donkey does to a draft. I see a lot of QH blood in them, and therefore some TB. I don't think I've ever seen one that wasn't built downhill. Pictures?
AntwortenLöschenHi there-- I was no addressing me comments specifically to Lipizzans--if my earlier post gave that impression, I apologize. I probably should not have put such a bit of speculation out there. Generally, I have seen some pix of mustangs which appear, to paraphrase an old friend, to have "a bit of breeding" about them-- I don't claim special expertise, though--
AntwortenLöschenAh, I understand what you mean, Mary. Yes, I've seen a few that were very nicely built. Not many, but a few.
AntwortenLöschenIn the boor "Dier ,bovendier" , Frank Westerman tells Podhajsky is riding Conversano Soja
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