Dear Horses and Dressage community, I’am new here and owner of a nearly 5 years old Lipizzaner gelding named Conversano Santa. Santa is not very big (1,53 cm) and has a really short rounded back. I’am on search for a dressage saddle and consulted a saddler for advice. He put some saddles on him to make a choice and found only 2 saddles from his 350 saddles in store, which could come into question. I took a seat in the saddles on a saddle tree and we decided in favour of a Schumacher Saddle.
The saddler made some modifications on it, decreasing the pad on the shoulder to keep the shoulder free for the movements, widen the tree and give the girth another position.
Now after several number of uses on the lunge and mounting on him I’am not really happy with this decision. The saddle slips to Santa’s shoulder and in case of mounting the saddle slips too, even the girt is tighten. On top, a physiotherapist for horses had a look at the saddle yesterday and confirmed my impression that this saddle is quite too long for him. But this saddle is one of the shortest we’ve found and a pony saddle is too small.
Now I ask for your experiences regarding the right saddle for Lipizzaner. It would be very helpful for me, if members of this community could give me some hints which saddle is in use on their own Lipizzaner horse (label/model). My saddler told me, that he is in the position to order a special saddle from the producer on demand.
Many thanks for your help in advance and feel free to enjoy Conversano Santa’s photos on my site. And I apologize for my english....
Try a Roussli or perhaps a Spirig....Good luck !!
AntwortenLöschenI would second a Spirig, since they are the ones that make the saddles that the SRS uses. I use two saddles on my mare: an Ansur treeless and a Duett Aria.
AntwortenLöschenBoth the Ansur and the Duett are made for round-backed horses. The Duett has a solid tree that is fashioned in a "U" shape, rather than the standard "V" shape. I also use these two saddles on a very short, fat Haflinger that has absolutely no withers. None. His back is also very, very short, like your Santa's. All other saddles do slip, my two do not.
I had great success with a Lauriche or a JP Giacomini (you can get these easily on ebay, usually- there is not much leather to the saddle and it forms to just about any horse very well) on a horse like this. I have been very, very happy with my new Jaguar. Vale Brothers Saddlery in England and Peter Wilkes gave me great advice.
AntwortenLöschenI know JUST what you are going through and it is a nightmare. The WYNGZ saddle pad or an Ogilvie saddle pad make a HUGE difference. Jackie Ogilvie will listen very carefully to your description of your horse and pull out a pad that will make a great improvement. I empathize with your situation deeply.
I also agree with roanart's comment above. Good Luck.
Wow... many thanks for your quick replies and advices, esp. @atjanh. Now I have some hints for my saddler, even he has 50 years work experience but more on warmbloods and less on baroque horses. But he never would admit that ;-)
AntwortenLöschenIt's like atjanh says: he makes a very wide tree and as a result the saddle is pushing on C.Santa's shoulder.
Looks like a beginning nightmare.... Fortunately there's no hurry for me to get a saddle as C.Santa is still young and starting with riding on him a few weeks later makes no difference.
Spirig Saddle's gives a good impression, but which range did you mean with really expensive? For example, I paid EUR 2.500 for the Schumacher, I learned from some people, that is not much money for a good saddle, but in my opinion: it's lot of money, but the horse healthy should be worth it. A saddle which causes pain on C.Santa's back helps nothing and I really will prevent him from that.
On http://www.zaldi.net/ I found a german distributor for Zaldi Saddles too and that could be a possibility....
At first, C.Santa's physio just called me and she arranged a visit of a baroque horses saddle specialist tomorrow for C. Santa. I'm really curious about it, we will see...
At the moment saddle is forbidden for C.Santa as he had a physiotherapy yesterday and it was hard for both of us. She found out, that C.Santa must have an accident in young years, something like hang-up in his halter and falling on his hind legs. As a result, his pelvis (Becken) is not in line and there was some vertebrae to straighten in his neck. She's doing her best but for the next week it is not allowed for him to work under the saddle. We are really sad...
I will try to make a photo tomorrow from him and the saddle on my site, to give you an impression.
Atjan,
AntwortenLöschenYes, thank you so much for your response. Although I do have two saddles which fit both my mare and the fatty guy, I'm not 100% satisfied how they fit *me*. I have very long thighs (19") and short calves (14") and find either the flaps are too long or my knees end up over the rolls. Even with no rolls and long stirrups, my knees are just not comfortable.
I've also been looking into jump saddles -- Lip mare DOES like to jump and so does haffie -- and you've given me some new makers to check into.
poehi: I don't know how much a Spirig runs on your side of the pond, but over here a black version of the SRS performance saddle (the white one they use) runs $7500. That includes a fitting by one of the Spirig family. I'd love one, but that's a bit rich for me :D
Atjan --
AntwortenLöschenI don't know if any of you jump the Lipizzaners at the school, or at Piber for that matter, but do you have any jumping saddles you can recommend? Anything with fit comparable to the dressage saddles you mentioned?
okay, roanart, many thanks for that info... even if the EURO is strong at this time, with today's rate it would be exactly 5356.38 Euro... uuups
AntwortenLöschenlooking for another solution... *ducking*
Hans Spirig from Switzerland does the best saddles for Lipizzans!
AntwortenLöschenI ride in Spirig saddles at the SRS. They all fit and are from outstanding quality!
Hans Spirig
Tel.: +41 71 243-56-26
CH-9000 St. Gallen,
I have had very good luck with a Black Country "Minuet" for this body type. Mine has the following modifications - wither gussets and a point billet to address the issues discussed above. We have tried this same saddle without those modifications and it hasn't worked at all.
AntwortenLöschenThe saddle is listed here (N. America), but I know that I bought it for significantly less a few years ago: http://www.advancedsaddlefit.com/saddles-black-country-saddles.html#minuetdressagesaddle
Also, it is made in England so maybe go straight to the source?
It fits both our 16hh lady Alsea (it took a long time to find a saddle that fit her, especially with her huge shoulder movement and the confirmation described above). We also discovered that it fits the 14.1hh gelding Favory Con Bria we picked up last summer and are just starting. We tried a number of saddles on him and were very surprised when he told us this one was the one. . .
Atjan: what wonderful information! I will be saving this post for the next time I have a horse to fit!
Poehli,
AntwortenLöschenDuett saddles originated in Europe and they sell them over there:
http://www.safesaddles.com/contact.php
The Fidelio runs around £1,250.00, according to their web site. Might be worth looking at.
I have a Schleese Wave for my Lipizzan mare and it works well. The Schleese saddles have a carbon fiber tree and can be adjusted as your horse changes. I have had my tree width adjusted many times since I bought the saddle. The trees also have swept back tree points so they don't dig into the horse's shoulder. My saddle has a point billet to help prevent the saddle from slipping forward. I believe Schleese has representatives in Germany. The saddles are on the expensive side but you might also be able to get a used one. If your horse is particularly hard to fit, you can get a semi-custom one which is made to your horse's measurements.
AntwortenLöschenTheir web site is http://www.schleese.com/
Hey, Petra, hope your boy's vertebra issues get sorted out. We searched and searched for something for Maestoso Omegga and ended up having a custom saddle built by a saddler here in California who has developed a custom tree which allows for shoulder freedom. The issue for these round barrelled, short backed horses is not so much saddle width, as you have already discovered, but making sure the tree is designed to fit appropriately, with plenty of shoulder and trapezius clearance. MO has been in his for over 8 years without a single adjustment required, though we have it checked at least once a year, especially now as he is working piaffe and passage regularly, preparing for his Grand Prix debut.
AntwortenLöschenGood luck in your search!
Jan
HI,
AntwortenLöschenI use for my 3 lipizzaners a Kn, Zaldi new Kent ( also the same as Atjan use), a passier GG and the Wintec isabell Werth.
I depends on the horses, they all have their owne saddle, because all 3 of them have a different type of body! I only switch with the Kn and Wintec for 1 of the stallions, because the Kn Symphony is great saddle but when you ride to much with it, your but hurts :-)))))))) well in my case then, don't know if more people have this problem!
Thamar
Atjan,
AntwortenLöschenChecking out those Zaldi saddles -- VERY NICE for the price! Used ones are running from $200-$500 on eBay. I'm going to see if I can locate a jumper version to try.
Thafalonie/Atjan
AntwortenLöschenAbout the Zaldi -- just how wide is the wide version? According to their web site they go up to 34 cm, but that seems slim for a Lipizzaner. Do you have them specially made in larger sizes?
Definitely try the Black Country saddles--both the Minuet and the Vinici, which is their monoflap model. Another possibility: the Theo Sommer Egon von Neindorff close contact dressage saddle--another monoflap.
AntwortenLöschenHI,
AntwortenLöschenMy Zaldi saddle got a medium tree and that's a size of 32 cm, the Zaldi saddles go up to the wide tree and that's the maximum as far as I know of 34 cm!
I don't know how wide your Lipizzaner is, but for my horses fits the 32 cm perfect (medium tree)
I got many contacts in Spain, I can ask if they make larges sizes, but I have used the Zaldi on many horses in the past and normally the medium fits very good. Do you know how wide your horse needs?
thamar
My mare takes a 36cm Duett and a friend has ones that take 38cm and 40cm Duetts. She's a tall and rather refined Lipizzan, but still wide through the shoulders.
AntwortenLöschenThe Stubbens used at the farm for other breeds are generally 32cm and they aren't near wide enough for my mare. I've been reading at several horse forums and the consensus seems to be that the Zaldi fits on the "big" side. I'm thinking that the 34cm should fit her or might even be too big. Either I need to find one locally that I can get on trial, or use a coat-hanger and measure her according to the Zaldi site.
Sigh. Maybe I'll just stick with Duetts. I don't particularly care too much for how they fit me. The flaps are WAY too long for my short calves.
HI,
AntwortenLöschenYes it is difficult to decide what is the best and even all type of saddle are different in the tree!, The zaldi is actually made for de PRE horses because they are also wide on the schoulders. The tree is way different than my KN medium tree, so i can not assure you what is the best. It would be allot easyer if you could try a 32 cm tree and 34 cm tree! But still the 32 cm tree fits prefect on my lipizzaners, and they are also wide on the schoulders!
If I lived closer to you I would say you could try my saddle.
Thamar
Thanks, thafalonie :)
AntwortenLöschenI'm going to see if I can source a Zaldi locally and try it on my girl. See which size does fit.
Hi,
AntwortenLöschenmany thx to all for all the good advices! Upon the recommendation of C.Santa's Physiotherapist Mrs. Sturmhövel from County Saddlery --> http://www.countysaddlery.com had a look at the saddle yesterday. First of all the tree is not wide enough. This saddle has a standard tree size of 29 cm and C.Santa needs min. 34 cm, although the saddler made modifications on it, the tree is too small. The fork tree is pushing the shoulder and the saddle end is placed behind the 18th. rib. Mrs. Sturmhövel offered me a County saddle with a tree size of 34 cm and we put one of them on C.Santa's back. What a difference, he is quite smaller and lies "on the horse" not "off the horse" .
But at next step I call my saddler tomorrow. With all the knowledge from your advices we will hopefully find a solution.
I uploaded some photos on my site from the saddle on C.Santa's back to give you an impression. Feel free for viewing them. Any comments are welcome! And I will keep you informed...
No, I do not have any experience with jumping saddles (or multi-purpose models) for Lipizzaners. But referring to my earlier story, the main issues for correct fitting remains the same. However, due to the compact physics of the Lipizzaner, I could imagine that full jumping saddles (with the saddle blades cut in a complete forward position) could disturb the use of the shoulder and fore leg.
AntwortenLöschenWell.... really the best saddle which I ever bought (an 18th century type school saddle - tailor made by a small, old fashioned Portuguese saddler) , cost ..... EUR 650,- ..... Super quality, old fashioned handcraft. Fits perfect to my small N.Elvira, but also to our large M.Pastime. And fits me...
AntwortenLöschenAnd the worst saddle I ever bought, was a "tailor made" common dressage model of a "famous" Dutch saddler. The test model fitted perfectly, the tailor made one for me was a disaster... with a laming horse at the end.... And it cost in the same range as your Schumacher....
So... price does not say anything to me anymore... The difficulty is the experience of the saddler, which is priceless... and so hard to find...
Well.... that would be the price for a Spirig school saddle. That's no use for training a young horse.
AntwortenLöschen(Although in Spain the "potrera"-saddle, with comparable characteristics as a SRS-school saddle, is specially used for training a young horse....)
As far as I know, the prices for a common Spirig dressage saddle in Switzerland/Germany/Austria are about EUR 2,500.- to EUR 3,000.- Including full fitting service at home, and the experience of Spirig.
But perhaps Andreas knows these prices better ? (For private customers, I mean. Of course not the SRS-price ;-) )
My Zaldi is a 32cm/18". It fits on both our stallions. (a small, compact one & a high, large framed one)
AntwortenLöschenAccording to the wideness of a saddle: please see my remark about that, above in my first message. My experience is, that people (including saddlers, with no experiences with horses like Lipizzaners, Friesians, Arabians, Haflingers etcetera) chooses saddle trees, which are far too wide in the front. These obstruct the muscles around the withers and shoulders! And are pressing and not carrying, which will result in decreasing of the muscle-structure. (Atrophie)
The basic principal is that the fork of the tree should follow the line of the withers and shoulder. The padding of the cushions are often hiding the real angle of the inside fork. Too wide is just as bad as too small !
My Zaldi is a 32cm/18". !! It happened to fit on both our stallions. (a small, compact one & a high, large framed one)
AntwortenLöschenAccording to the wideness of a saddle: please see my remark about that, above in my first message. My experience is, that people (including saddlers, with no experiences with horses like Lipizzaners, Friesians, Arabians, Haflingers etcetera) chooses saddle trees, which are far too wide in the front. These obstruct the muscles around the withers and shoulders! And are pressing and not carrying, which will result in decreasing of the muscle-structure. (Atrophie)
The basic principal is that the fork of the tree should follow the line of the withers and shoulder. The padding of the cushions are often hiding the real angle of the inside fork. Too wide is just as bad as too small !
I have the same experience as Thamar to this subject!
AntwortenLöschenI won't state that Zaldi is THE one-and-only solution for Lipizzaner-types. There are correct saddlers enough to find. But as all "standard" European saddlers are focusing on their customers with mostly warmblood-typed horses, Zaldi started basically for their Spanish home market. And developed a slightly different tree and padding.
By the way... the standard training saddle of the Royal Andalusian School for Equestrian Art in Jerez is a ... Zaldi, (type Doma Yarel)
(The grey school saddles which are used for the performances are mostly by Ludomar)
And you know what..... this might be the solution for this moment.... But in a few years he will be grown up, and will be more developed in his muscles..... The form around the withers, shoulders, back and loins will be completely different then.... and the circus starts all over again... ;-)
AntwortenLöschenBut don't worry, at the end you will be an expert of yourself, and you will be able to tell your saddler what to do ;-)
Atjan,I learned a lot this weekend ;-) and I was a greenhorn to believe getting a saddle with the first shot..
AntwortenLöschenA saddle may never disturb the functioning and the free use of trapezius-muscle (around the withers) and the latissimus dorsi (wide back muscle - behind the shoulder towards the ribs, partly beneath the trapezius)
AntwortenLöschenThe trapezius effects the movements (fore- and backwards) of the shoulder and the complete foreleg. And the use of the neck.
The latissimus dorsi effects the upper arm. And the elasticity of the back and ribs.
If a saddle is pressing on one of those, or even blockading, it will effect the complete natural mechanism in a negative way. Like I said earlier: too wide is just as bad as too small.... A delicate matter...
Good! That is the most interesting part of this H&D group! We are all so "fanatic" with our horses, and trying to find the best for them. And willing to share our experiences ;-) Success!
AntwortenLöschenThank you very much for your posts on this subject, Atjan. There is a local tack shop that does saddle consignment sales and they literally have hundreds of saddles on hand at any time. I'm going to pop in there and see what they have. Maybe there is a Zaldi in there somewhere :)
AntwortenLöschenNow I had a call with my saddler. In his honored opinion it is normal the saddle slips on a horse with round ribs, I should take a stool to get onto the horse. ??Do you all need a stool for getting onto your Lipizzaner??
AntwortenLöschenI proposed him some of the other labels you told me and he was not very amused.
Zaldi trees would be not adjustable, Albion would be larger than mine... and so on. Regarding Spirig/St.Gallen he says that C. Santa is not "typical Lipizzaner" with his short back and when Spirig's will fit on other Lipizzaner doesn't mean it will fit on mine.
The real problem is, that all these labels are not in his distribution. He could not earn money with them. I don't mind to change the saddler, but I paid him and he has the money now :-(. According to the german law he is not bound taking back the saddle and give me my money back.
He will look for a solution and call me back in the next days. I'm curious about it...
I look forward to C.Santa this evening, needing something positive that builds me up...
Sure.... a stool.... Did you know, that the vaquero's ("cowboys") in Spain do not even tight their girths....? Those vaquero saddles simply stay on the back of those Spanish horses, even by mounting....
AntwortenLöschenTo be honest, I always use a stool for mounting, simply because it is better for my own pelvis (I happened to have some arthritic problems over there...). But not for the saddle...
By the way, how does he explain the fact that the saddle is moving forward, across the withers? And that it causes problems with the muscles?
Poehli,
AntwortenLöschenI need a block for mounting, but that's because I'm short with very short legs and Fionna is 15.3hh :) I can barely reach the stirrups on her. Now, the haflinger is a different story. He's about 14hh and ROUND -- not just haflinger round, but FAT round. The boy is way overweight. Anyhow, I can mount him from the ground with both my Duett and Ansur treeless saddles. Neither slips. The Duett fits the way Atjan outlined above, which makes me feel great even though the saddle doesn't fit *me* too well.
As far as I can see on your pictures, I think he IS "typical Lipizzaner" ! And believe me, I have seen some.. ;-) Also this compact round type definitely belongs to the breed.
AntwortenLöschenBut.... it has nothing to do with his breed. The main question is: can he offer you a saddle that fits correctly to your horse, or not ?
The positive thing is, that -as far as I know- the Schumacher saddles have a good reputation. You may sell it to somebody with a horse, to which this saddle may fit. Ok, with some loss, I fear...
AntwortenLöschen(I know this too well....)
That's right Atjan, I consider this possibility too. Loss will be anywhere, due the saddler made a second hole into the flap to modify the position of the girth. And this will not fit every horse or someone don't mind that second hole.
AntwortenLöschenThat's what I ask him too... but as answer he suggested a electric measurement to locate the pressure points with the schumacher. Don't know the word in english: "Druckpunktmessung". I didn't agree, with regard to C.Santa.
AntwortenLöschenBut I made my position clear: either another 100% fitting saddle or no deal. Now he will think about it...
Regarding the stool I surely meant, if you must use it because the saddle slips. On greater horses I use it too, because I have arthritic probs with my kneecaps... . A light slip is ok but this was too much.
AntwortenLöschenHe didn't believe that the saddle is moving forward, he think the girth was not tighten enough... It seems that I'm a typical "DAU" (Dümmster Anzunehmender User)... an expression from my job (software engineer)
Pfffff..... to my opinion you should say goodbye to this type....
AntwortenLöschenToo funny! I'm not sure of the English translation of "Anzunehmender", poehli, but it sounds very similar to the acronym I coined back in the late 80s. I was a Network Systems Analyst at the time and I came up with DFU . . . the "f" is a common English swear word, the rest the same as yours :D
AntwortenLöschenAnyhow, back on subject, I agree with Atjan. Tightening the girth isn't the solution. I ride with a loose girth and only tighten it up a bit more when I ride the fat guy.
Our saddle fitter (from Schleese) recommends that you use a stool or mounting block to mount your horse. If you hold onto the cantle (back part of the saddle) when you mount, eventually you could cause the saddle tree to twist. It is also more comfortable to the horse if you use a mounting block.
AntwortenLöschenI also agree that just tightening the girth isn't going to keep the saddle from moving forward. I went through this with a few saddles. When the saddle is properly fitted, it doesn't move around even if you don't have the girth tight. Like Atjan mentioned once your horse develops muscles, you will need to go through saddle fitting again. I have found with my mare that she changes just about every year!! Sometimes I have had to get the saddle adjusted twice a year. This is why I have a saddle with a tree that can be adjusted many times.
the saddle has always slipped on one of our horses, last month we tried a new saddle which was a great fit and....no slip !!! His gaits also improved !!
AntwortenLöschenI think you mean: Röösli -Switzerland. Excellent saddles and Lipica use them for their Lipizzaner.
AntwortenLöschenyes,Roosli...I'm always misspelling it. Thanks for the correction !
AntwortenLöschenRösli ;-)
AntwortenLöschennee, Andreas: R-Ö-Ö-S-L-I ischt nämlichrr Schwitzer Original Fabrikaat, odrr? Suuper Sattel ischt daas.
AntwortenLöschenKennst Du nicht?
AntwortenLöschenJa doch, bin bei Wahl am Hasenberg in Röösli geritten.
AntwortenLöschenRössli ;-)
AntwortenLöschenDachte ich mir doch ;-) (aich der besonnenste kann sich mal irren)
AntwortenLöschenEin Röösli ist ein Rösli für´s Rössli.
AntwortenLöschenDear audience,
AntwortenLöschenI would like to give you an update in this matter. At first, many thanks to all the good advices and wishes for C.Santa... :-)
At second: the problem is solved! Regarding the bad weather it took some time the saddler find his way to the stable and in the meantime we had some really - let me say - exiting phone calls ;-) Two weeks ago we find a date together with C.Santa's physio. He's taking measurements again, made a humming noise, changed the width of the tree and give the girth the original Position. Then he explained that this saddle's back cushions are not "Keilkissen" but "Französische Kissen", because of C.Santa's short back. As the physio agreed, I decided to give this saddle one more try.
To cut the long story short: the saddle doesn't slip any more either to the shoulder nor to the side and C.Santa...? He's totally fine with his saddle too and today he gives me a great pleasure: it was the first time for him working under the saddle in the great hall (we have 3 there) while another horse was in. The first few minutes he was a little bit exited, but then he's doing very well in walk and trot and we was very proud.
I'm a bit late to this conversation. I opted for a Fhoenix Vogue for my Lipizzaner, partly because it's treeless and so we can avoid having endless fitting problems as he matures and changes shape, but mainly because in my area of the country, it is nearly impossible to find a good saddle fitter. I had endless problems with my old horse and saddle fitting, so I have thrown in the towel and given up on them all!
AntwortenLöschenI have been using it for 18 months now and it's fine, my horse has complete freedom of his shoulders due to the lack of points and I have complete comfort for my bottom due to the lush memory foam seat! :-) His back is really well muscled and in good shape.
If I have one problem for it, it would be that I would like a slightly longer seat, but that's not the fault of the saddle, my horse has a short back and couldn't take a longer saddle. However, the stirrup bars are nicely set back to help with correct rider alignment, so I have plenty of room for my length of thigh.
My choice will probably be one of Schleese saddles for daily use. I shall make final decision in February when I'll have a chance to see them live, but I like the features of the SaddleFit4Life saddles (which Schleese is) a lot. And in time, when my horse matures and if I shall have the money, a white beauty from Spirig :D
AntwortenLöschenwww.schleese.com
www.saddlefit4life.com
nice bolg~!!!!
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