This is from an article in Horse Magazine. The article is titled "Working with Lisa Wilcox and Ernst Hoyos"
Is what Ernst Hoyos says true about the SRS working behind the vertical?
---"Lisa is riding Raoul very deep and round, and a couple of inches behind the vertical. Which is a bit of a puzzle since we believed that the Spanish Riding School was the last enclave of the credo that behind the vertical is behind the bit and a mortal sin. Not so Ernst tells me later: "At the Spanish Riding School they have to work their horses through just like everyone else, just like we do - and then when you get into an arena to present them, then they go on the vertical. You have to work behind the vertical, and you do it in the Spanish School."---
That came up in the Classical Dressage group. I'd like to know that, too.
AntwortenLöschenNo we don't! Though it happens that horses get behind the vertical. Our training philosophy is clear and can be proofed in daily morning training.
AntwortenLöschenI was troubled by the statement he made. It did not match anything I have seen at the SRS. I have never seen a stallion at the SRS "put" behind the vertical.
AntwortenLöschenIt is disturbing to me that some one like Ernst Hoyos would say this. Given who he is, people would tend to believe what he is saying and feel it is the correct and classical way.
Romy
Can I quote you on the Classical List, Andreas?
AntwortenLöschenThis is from an old article. It was discussed in 2005 on UDBB. Looks like it's making the rounds again :-). I can also vouch that the statement doesn't match what I've seen at the SRS or what I've been taught by Andreas.
AntwortenLöschenI know that what Andreas is saying is correct. The intent is to work on the vertical and/or slightly in front. I have watched at the SRS since 1980 many times. During Hoyos' last years he rode some Neopolitano horses not only behind the vertical but also in draw reins in the morning schooling and then lead the the evening performance with the same horse in the Grand Quadrille in 2000. His horse got behind the vertical and got the tongue over the bit for the majority of the quadrille. Kottas was riding in second position. Hoyos was in front because he and his horse were the biggest. In my observation, the theory and principles are only as good as its current day practitioners and it is very easy to stray accidentally, unwittingly, or unknowingly away from classical standards. Riding in a community of likeminded people is a helpful way to check to make sure everyone is staying on the right track.
AntwortenLöschenWas ist los mit dieser Zeit, dass alte bewährte Lehren nicht mehr verstanden werden, die das Pferd schöner machen und strahlen lassen. Es gibt KEIN
AntwortenLöschenArgument für das Zusammenziehen der Pferde. Fast schade, dass heute die Zuchtergebnisse so feine Pferde bringen, die es leichter machen.
Ein offenes Geheimnis: Die Pferde sind besser geworden, die Reiter schlechter....
Um so größer die Verantwortung in Wien. Bitte verlaßt niemals Euren Weg!
Sure, please do!
AntwortenLöschenExcellent Atjan!
AntwortenLöscheni agree.
AntwortenLöschenand some horses prefer to be trained for a short time behind the vertical to find their way into "stellung und biegung".sometimes it is much easier for a horse to bend round from behind the vertical-down-inside-up. my experience. beeing behind the vertical is not the same as this "rollkur"-stuff. it always depends on the situation and on the behavior of the rider. making pressur with the hand and leg and pulling a horse down does not make any sense. but using the gain of stretching is nothing bad. my oppinion.
Nicely written, Atjan!
AntwortenLöschenVery good written Atjan !
AntwortenLöschenIt's very difficult subject !!!
Na sowas, da gibt es ein Buch: Das Pferd im 2. Weltkrieg. Und was sehe ich? Durch das ganze Buch korrekt sitzende Reiter, ob im Sprung, im Gelände....und Pferde, die nicht im 3. Halswirbel abknicken. (Reitvorschrift 1937, H.Dv.12, hatte zum Ziel, ein Pferd möglichst lange und gesund zu erhalten bei teilweise intensivem Einsatz). Das gibt zu denken. Natürlich, Atjan, das ist nicht der Fokus, Kopf/Hals alleine, es ist immer das ganze Pferd zu betrachten, aber....alle alten Reitmeister, die nun schon leider gestorben sind,
AntwortenLöschenhaben eine Aussage gemeinsam: Ein Pferd kann nicht korrekt gehen mit "falschem Knick",
d.h. die Verbindung Maul-Genick- Rücken-HH arbeitet nicht optimal, d.h. pferdeschonend.
Dann ist da noch ein "innerer Teil", der nicht zu übersehen sein sollte. Ein Pferd soll im Laufe der Zeit zum Tanzen, zum Strahlen gebracht werden.....ein Pferd hinter der Senkrechten ist für mich ein Sklave, habt Ihr mal einen Balettänzer gesehen mit Kopf nach unten??Es ist eine Zeit der Wandlung, die ich für mich persönlich nicht gut heiße. Man sieht das auch bereits in Sattelreklamen: Das Pferd den Kopf eingerollt, darauf der Reiter (gut aufgerichtet wohlgemerkt) mit Faust in der Luft, will sagen: ICH bin der Sieger-NEIN, guter Reiter, ohne das Pferd bist Du nichts, will ich anmerken. Es ist auch eine geistige Komponente, die ein abgeknicktes Pferd verdeutlicht, und das ist nicht der richtige Weg, da bekomme ich Magenschmerzen.
By the way.... what I did not mention in my reaction above...
AntwortenLöschenTo be honest, when I read that specific article about Ernst Hoyos and Lisa Wilcox, I was also a little bit surprised about these statements of his... And the context within they were put.
Just for your information: Ernst Hoyos left the SRS on his own request. He felt that the dressage sport would offer him more challenges, after being a Bereiter in Vienna so many years.
To my personal opinion, he was a rider who was working in his Viennese years within the frame of the classical European dressage though, but during the years more and more at the edges.
Related to this he knew that he never would have the opportunity to become a Oberbereiter...
He cooperated in Germany with Johann Hinnemann, with Lisa Wilcox (who worked in Germany in that time) and Ulla Salzgeber.
See: http://salzgeber.dlgweb.homelinux.com/Vita/Wegbegleiter/Ernst%20Hoyos/Ernst_hoyos_eng.htm
As far as I know, he is working now (among other) in the Tasdorf Stud in Germany. (www.gestuet-tasdorf.de) And for the Staff of the Bavarian Riding and Driving Association (BRFV).
This is the url to the article under discussion for those who have not read it.
AntwortenLöschen(www)horsemagazine.com/CLINIC/W/WILCOX_LISA/ernst&lisapartone/ernstlisaone
AntwortenLöschenFrom his statements in Dressurestall Salzgeber, I would think the personal glory became most important to him:
“I wanted to orientate myself at the highest level and Germany is number one at dressage sports”, Ernst added. 1993 he came in Ulla’s dressage stable. “It was a lucky chance having got to know Ulla. She had the right ambitions and wanted to ride big events.”