I'm interested to hear other's views on training aids, particularly side reins. I have been thinking about them a lot recently!
I used to use side reins routinely on the lunge, because that's what I was taught to do. I've also used a pessoa - the horse this was actually useful on was my old tb x, who fractured his pelvis some years ago. It improved his proprioception a little, he liked to trail his hind legs just a wee bit too much. I've also experimented with chambons & de gogues.
Then I started to question things more, and decided to ditch the gadgets. So far I haven't felt the need to use them at all on my young horse, I did plenty of in hand work off the bridle before he was backed so he knew all about the bit and how to respond to a few different rein aids.
I have actually been disobedient and gone against my trainer's advice on this point - he told me to use side reins on the lunge before backing to get him used to a contact, but I didn't feel comfortable with it so I didn't... Trainer came back for a clinic in May and was really pleased with my horse's progress, so I didn't confess to not using the side reins!
I have a pair of plain leather vienna reins and did actually put them on my horse once, on the lunge, just to see what he would do. He normally lunges quite well, like most Lipis he tends towards a high head carriage but he's learning to use his back more and normally lunges in quite good form with no auxiliary reins. With the vienna reins loosely fitted, he immediately went hollow and resistant, he just did not like the feel. Which is quite strange, as he is fine with rein contact and aids under saddle.
My current thinking is that even the plain leather side reins give a fixed feel to the horse, nowhere near the responsive and educated feel that a good hand gives to the horse. So what does the horse learn from this contact? Does he learn to lean a little, or to tuck his nose behind the fixed feeling? The side reins with elastic or rubber inserts can only give a more inconsistent feel - the rubber donuts bounce horribly and the elastic I do think encourages leaning and a harder mouth.
So why do we use them? I just don't understand using them to educate a horse about contact, because it's surely better to do that from the ground. What does a side rein do if the horse tries to lean, snatch, hollow, overbend, etc? Nothing! The rider or handler can correct that immediately. And on the lunge, even on a trained horse - the fixed and unmoving contact of the side rein cannot be anything like a rider contact. Do the horses really need it? What happens if we leave the side reins off - is there an immediate difference in the horse's way of going? If so, what does that tell us about his training and his understanding of the way he should be using his body?
I'd be really interested to hear thoughts on this, especially from people with lots of horses in training. I'd love to have a yard full of horses I could experiment with, but sadly, I don't! I only know what mine have taught me, and what my pupil's horses teach me. But I'm still learning, still have a lot to learn, and could be barking up completely the wrong tree.....
you have a lot of very good questions. I have been training horses for over 30 years and was instructed always to use side reins by my mentors including a Chief Rider at the SRS. I was also taught never to use chambon, draw reins, Pessoa etc.
AntwortenLöschenSome horses will learn to lean on side reins over time and they can develop a monster lower neck muscle from it, if the haunches are not kept active.
This is the very difficult part about side reins, remember to never contact the rein stronger than you are able to supply sufficient energy in the haunches to support the longitudinal bascule from behind. Whether riding or lunging.
So, i think it must be an individual decision per each horse.
Some horses do better being gound driven or double lunged with no side reins
with the lines going through the surciingle loops up where the riders hands are.
We do all of our lunging in a dedicated lunge arena. not in the large school. this helps protect the footing of the big school and helps describe the circle for the horse.
With some horses that are very tight in the top line, the side rein loosly suggests rounding over the back and can be gradually shortened to increase the stretch of the top line but never 'holds' the horse in a 'frame'. the rider should try to have the horse in 'self-carriage' in longitudinal bascule with or without the side reins.
Ultimately this comes down to keeping the horse well between the driving aids and the half-halting or collecting aids and not doing one to the exclusion of the other.
Some horses that have a natural bascule, or that are very lazy do not benefit from the side reins as they are overkill for the bascule, or they ruin the forward energy.
Side reins can be very useful if a horse is extremely crooked to help guide the horse to functional straightness.
Side reins can be very useful if the horse is extremely inverted to help guide the horse to a round top line and prevent severe invesion.
Phillip Karl recently advocated an extreme suggestion to the FEI that all auxilliary reins be abolished (I'm paraphrasing). Although this seems radical, it is food for thought about the overuse, and over dependance on all of those gadgets.
Less is always more with the reins.
I think that it is a misconception to think that the sidereins educate the horse's mouth to the contact. You are right when you say
"even the plain leather side reins give a fixed feel to the horse, nowhere near the responsive and educated feel that a good hand gives to the horse."
Often the side reing is attached to the cavusson and not the bit in order to protect the horse's tender mouth. So this is another option.
I hope this helps
www.WilliamsDressage.com
Thanks for your reply. I do agree that side reins can be useful on a very inverted horse, and actually did go against my principles and recommend this for a friend recently. Her horse had been ridden very poorly by a "trainer" and had become extremely hollow with very sore withers to go along with it. She actually used a harbridge, only 2-3 times, with the desired result.
AntwortenLöschenI know about Philippe Karl's letter, I've been following the saga! Have you seen the latest response? I watched a clinic of his in Pegestorf in Germany a few months ago, he's a very interesting man. I do agree that gadgets are overused, I'd really like to see them not abolished completely, but saved for horses like those of my friend, who need a little helping hand for a short period of time.
Re using driving and collecting aids and not using one to the exclusion of the other - well, that brings me nicely back to Mr Karl. As you probably know, he is an advocate of isolating the hand and leg aids from one another during the basic phases of training. As he says, if you use hand and leg at the same time, you immediately make the horse disobedient to one or both. Wouldn't the same apply to driving and collecting aids on the lunge? Although I suppose that also depends on the skill and tact of the trainer and the stage of education of the horse. But speaking of my horse in particular - he is a 5yo, I don't want to confuse him by driving him forwards and holding him back at the same time. If I want more engagement, I either do quick transitions within the pace (big trot/slow trot etc) or I bring him on a volte, touch the inside hind to ask for more activity and then send him forwards. If he rushes away, I use my voice and body posture to slow him down.
I also don't lunge exclusively on a circle. My trainer who I clinic with 2-3 times a year is ex-Cadre Noir, he taught me to use the whole arena, incorporating circles with work on straight lines. Makes you fit, keeping up with a cantering horse down the long side of a 60m arena!!! At the latest clinic he also brought his friend Jean-Louis Guntz with him, who has recently retired from his post as Maitre Ecuyer at the Cadre Noir. J-L had some good tips for increasing activity and suppleness using the voltes.
I'll see if I can put some photos up later of our lunging lessons - I know I have one of me running alongside in trot. Not sure if I can add them to this or if they will have to go on the photos section, I am not very good with technology!
Forgot to say, it was my ex-Cadre Noir trainer Francois who told me to use side reins on the lunge. I thought about it and decided not to, because I couldn't resolve my questions about side reins in my own head, and no-one I spoke to could answer them either! If Francois had been around, I might have had a discussion with him about it, but he lives in the USA and I live in the UK! So I just get left to do my homework til the next time I see him. The next time I saw Francois, he just praised the improvements and didn't mention the side reins again, so I still don't use them! :-D
AntwortenLöschenalternately driving and 1/2 halting to make small transitions inside the gait works well for gaining engagement and the horse's attention.
AntwortenLöschenArthur Kottas's video on lunging is superb, and you learn as much by watching as you do from the soundtrack.
alternately driving and 1/2 halting to make small transitions inside the gait works well for gaining engagement and the horse's attention.
AntwortenLöschenArthur Kottas's video on lunging is superb, and you learn as much by watching as you do from the soundtrack.
Thanks, I'll look out for that video. I hear the shop at the SRS is good for books etc, I'll look when I'm there.
AntwortenLöschenDo you think it's possible to get efficient slowing and engagement of the haunches using only the voice and body language? I'm just not comfortable with checking the lunge rein regularly. Lifting it, to raise the head and transfer some weight back to the haunches, yes, but not much else.
Maybe I am getting confused however - can you tell me how you do your half halts whilst lunging?
body language is a huge part of successful lunging and ground work.
AntwortenLöschenthe voice "brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" to slow the horse
or a very fine vibration (like the french use of the riding rein) on the lunge line attached to the cavusson (not the bit) can be used along with steping ahead of the horse to slow the horse
any downward inflected voice aid that is calming should be able to calm or slow the horse
I use a whistle to slow down. It's what they used at the stud in Hungary when I went to buy my horse, so I just adopted it! Works well for us. Thinking about it, I use solely voice aids and body language to slow down - eyes down, soft shoulders, slowing my own pace down and so on. I only use the lunge line if he ignores that, but he's pretty good and usually tries to listen and be obedient.
AntwortenLöschenI added some more photos to my site on here, I think if you click on my name you should be able to see them. The ones in the indoor arena were from my lessons with Francois and Jean-Louis in May of this year. I also added a photo of the lunge cavesson I had made following my lessons - it has lots of rings on it for attaching things to, would probably be good if I ever decide to experiment with side reins again! It also has elastic inserts in the noseband and jowl strap and is lined with doe skin - nice and grippy for those leaping Lipizzaner moments!
Oh, bear in mind, re my horse's frame in the photos - he's only 5yo, had only been backed a few months here and it's his first time being lunged and ridden away from home. He has a lot still to come in terms of engagement of the haunches and lightening his forehand a little, but I believe in being patient and achieving those things slowly. It was quite funny to look through the photos and vids from that clinic actually, he's changed so much in just three months!
i can't find your longeing photos... perhaps i'm not looking in the right place?
AntwortenLöschenif you're concerned about the fixed nature of some SRs (and i agree that straight side reins may not be the choice for youngsters), you may try sliding side reins--also known as lauffer reins? these allow the horse to have mobility of the head and neck, to find his own natural balance on the longe, and not be jabbed in the mouth when he comes against the rein in a momentary loss of balance. they may be a tool to consider. of course, philippe karl doesn't like any SRs but i won't comment on that. :-)
Jenny, thank you for starting this interesting, thought prevoking blog.
AntwortenLöschenWhat a joy to read that I am not the only one to do "as told" because my questions & concerns about the detremental effect on equines that so far, have not been answered & read of your continued search for answers.
I do not pretend to have the answers & probably in today's world, my resistence of gadgets & quick fixes & the need for so many to produce results quickly, whatever the consequence to the equine, never will be able to.
UK based, taught by good "old fashioned" grooms, farriers & vets, I came up through what is now considered by many of the old school of as little, in the mouth, on the back & hoof as possble, irrespective of the age of the equine.
Would love to see your photos but unable to find them, too.
Jenny, thank you for starting this interesting, thought prevoking blog.
AntwortenLöschenWhat a joy to read that I am not the only one to do "as told" simply because my questions & concerns about the detremental effect on equines that so far, have not been answered & read of your continued search for answers.
I do not pretend to have the answers & probably in today's world, my resistence of gadgets & quick fixes & the need for so many to produce results quickly, whatever the consequence to the equine, never will be able to.
UK based, taught by good "old fashioned" grooms, farriers & vets, I came up through what is now considered by many as old school, that being as little in the mouth, on the back & hoof as possble, irrespective of the age of the equine.
Would love to see your photos but am also unable to find them,
Thanks both.
AntwortenLöschenAfrikando - the vienna reins I refer to in my first post are the same as lauffer reins, or sliding side reins, they go by many names!
halkynuk - glad I am not alone in my thoughts! Although it often feels like it.
I wonder if I need to add you as friends in order for you to see my photos... They are on my site under the photo tab, you have to click on the one photo displayed to get to the album. But I'll add you as friends anyway, just in case :-)
hi lipizzan. i will check to see if i can see your photos now. regarding the viennas, how did you attach them? fastened between the front legs, they are vienna SRs; fastened to the side, they are lauffer SRs. if you tried them as viennas, definitely try the other way. off to check your site and look for pics!
AntwortenLöscheninteresting discussion!
AntwortenLöschenHere my views:
When you lounge horses a snaffle, side reins, cavesson and a lounge whip should be used always and in any case. Mostly I use side reins without any rubber rings, because they let loose much faster yet they tell the horse "till here and not further".
why:
The young horse in side reins is muscled up properly, learns how to bring his back up and swing under the point of gravity and last but not least: learn to be obedient in a playful way. When I lounge a young horse I focus allot on the hunches. The basic for the Campaign School and the High School!
With an Campaign or High School horse I use side reins, cavesson, snaffle and saddle or surcingle.
It's like with riding:
timing, feel, body language and experience is everything
and:
transitions are the salt in the (classical) dressage soup
afrikando - interesting, I didn't know that! You learn something new every day. They were attached as lauffer SRs in that case. He didn't like them!
AntwortenLöschenAndreas - "till here and not further" - I like that. That's a nice way of putting it.
You have made me think of yet more questions though, sorry!
Do you attach the side reins to the snaffle or to the cavesson?
I know some people work their horses to High School without auxiliary reins - Philippe Karl has already been mentioned, Anja Beran is the other who springs to mind. What I don't know is if it involves different techniques or timescales to train without? And is the end result, in terms of the horse and his way of working, any different than that of the horse who has been trained with side reins from the very beginning?
Snaffle
AntwortenLöschenlipizzan, success! i see the longeing photos and your horse is just lovely.
AntwortenLöschenOh good, that solves that mystery! Thank you, I think he's great but I am biased. He has blotted his copybook somewhat by pratting around in the field and now has a tiny lesion on his suspensory ligament, so is on six weeks box rest and off to horsepital on Monday for shockwave therapy. And my lovely new made to measure lunging roller arrived today too, won't be doing any long reining with that for a while.... :-(
AntwortenLöschenI have trained with Francois for many years and he lived on my farm for a while. He does use side reins when needed usually as a warm up. But he is also a master on the long rein and that is his normal way of working/ training horses. After he has taught the movement on the long reins then he will ride the movement later that week.
AntwortenLöschenI train many young horses here and I have used them less and less as I get older "as a pair." I have used them mostly in the last few years only on the outside then I'm lunging. I usually use my lunge line like a drawback rein from the surcingle thru the bit to my hand. Which allows me to "comb" the inside rein with my hand on a young horse and still have some outside rein to keep the horse from falling in. I can easily re-balance horse with some encouragement from behind.
I have a student who has started using a Pessoa on her TB, and I'm actually impressed with it. It's not something I would use daily, but it is a good substitute for a student who only knows how to lounge. It's easy to use as a quick work on an off day of riding.
And lastly I'm a huge believer in shockwave therapy. I had a young horse get sidebone usually that becomes a bi-lateral problem, but three treatments and three weeks and the mare was sound. I had a stess fracture in my foot and we use it twice and with in 10 days I was walking with out pain. Magnetic wave machines are incredible pieces of equipment for horse in training and riders with old injury problems.
Ah, pleased to meet you, it's always nice to meet fellow students of Francois! How lucky that he lived with you for a while, we keep threatening to kidnap him and hold him hostage in England so that we can have more regular lessons - luckily he knows us well enough to know that we are joking. He brought Jean-Louis Guntz over with him one year, and I don't think J-L knew what to make of our threats! :-)
AntwortenLöschenFrancois has move back to Florida, and is in Kentucky 6 times a year. He trained my stallion for a while when he lived in Kentucky. When I talked with him last month, he said that Jean-Louis was living in the states, I thought mentioned Tennessee. In 03 JLG was here for a large Dressage clinic, it was actually a funny joke as he was still with the Cadre Noir under contract so we could not mention his name. So all the clinic advertisements said Francois and "special French Friend" would be the clinicians. lol We could not mention JLG name in print because of his position at the school.
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