Donnerstag, 4. September 2008

Female Eleves at the Spanish Riding School!!!

We took the first female eleves at the school!!!
 

22 Kommentare:

  1. Andreas,

    I know you thought females would be accepted at the school, but I'm surprised it happened so soon. How many female eleves were accepted?

    Jan

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  2. This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.

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  3. Two! A Girl is from Austria, the other one is living in New York but european citizen.

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  4. Hello Andreas!   About the EU citizen living in New York... Is she also the first eleve who is not an Austrian citizen? I think the School only offered the opportunity for EU citizens to apply for the eleve position a few years ago. So, it is possible that this young woman is also the first non-Austrian citizen...

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  5. We had a male eleve from tchec republic a couple of years ago, but he didn't make it. So she's is not the first one.

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  6. I think you misunderstood. She isn't strictly speaking American. What Andreas said was the she was a European who is living in New York. One has to be an EU citizen to apply. Of course, the young woman may have dual citizenship and be an American citizen as well but she cannot be only an American citizen or she would not have been alowed to apply.

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  7. How very exciting for these women, I wish it was me, but it
    would have had to be quite a few years earlier.

     

    All my best,

     

    Kim & Guinnness

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  8. "CAN YOU FOLLOW MY CONCERNS....? I might be overreacting now, I admit. Perhaps I take my role as watch dog of the Lipizzaner breed and all its surrounding to serious. But nevertheless…. I am seriously concerned.

    So, no I am not happy with this development.
    And yes, I do like women. In any position, at any level.

    Atjan"

    Atjan, I feel the same way you do. In addition, the manner in which this took place - with Mrs G체rtler choosing the Eleves rather than the Chief Riders, and despite the objections of Sissy Max-Theurer and others, is appalling.

    Good leaders don't manage businesses and companies in this way, much less a 430+ year old institution of art, culture and history that has carried on its tradition through almost impossible odds.

    And Atjan, your English is perfect. :)

    For general interest - Article here:
    http://www.wienerzeitung.at/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3941&Alias=wzo&cob=369428

    Best regards,

    jorie (and Conversano Blanca I)
    www.dressageclinics.org


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  9. it is important for the school to maintain the traditions and beleifs which
    founded it and the eleves have always been chosen by the riders of the school
    for training
    this choice of the manger of the school is a major breach of tradition and
    in a way etitcet
    personaly I am not sure of how I feel about female riders in the school not
    because they cannot be fantastic riders because the can be but because of the
    many years of tradition and yes old school thoughts on the matter
    Ralph


    It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here.

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  10. Ok, here are more details: a girl from Austria and a girl from Great Britain (living in New York). we took also two male eleves all four will start at 10. September 2008  

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  11. Dear Atjan,
     
    I
    agree with you!  You make wonderful statements.  As a woman, I FULLY
    understand your statements and I agree.  There is nothing wrong with
    keeping tradition especially for all of the reasons you write.  I suppose I
    am simply too much of a traditionalist (not in all things, but yes, in
    this).
     
    Thank you for you excellent, well written, and well thought
    comments.
     
    Sisi

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  12. Atjan, how very articulate you are! I agree with you but could not have expressed myself  so clearly and English is my native language.   My compliments to you!

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  13. Atjan,

    Concur with your sentence:

    “Or to put it simple: if Emperor Franz Josef would return tomorrow, everything must look the same, as at the moment when he left ..... “

    You are so right, the Austrians have broken with their tradition!

    Never before in History has a foreigner advised them on the breeding program for their Lipizzaner. This must stop at once! Daher, es war sehr schoen es hat uns sehr gefreut and now as a true Wiener would have put it, “schleichns earna.”

    But you are so right Atjan, we must go back to tradition (!!!) and thus:
    No more dragging the arena with the tractor, they must do it with the stallions again.
    No more visitors in the exclusive traditional buildings.
    No more shows! (oops, so sorry meant to write exhibitions)
    No more automatic waterers for the horses.
    No more state of the art high tech hot walker.
    No more high tech footing in the arena.
    No more pre-produced feed for the horses.
    No more Albion saddles & tack. Back to the good old home made stuff.
    No more dry cleaning of the uniforms (yuck!)
    No more tours to the United States. (sorry groupies no more schn…..)
    All horses for the SRS have to come from the original stud Lipica again. (hmm, I think this is not going to please the Austrians so I guess I should not mention the studbook here)
    And how absolutely disgusting to have commoners (!!) as riders in the school reserved for aristocrats!!!! The plebs riding Lipizzaner??!! na da dreht sich der Franzl aber im Grab um.


    But oh, wait a second. No more commoners as riders in the school? That would mean loosing Mr. Krzisch, Mr. Eder, Mr. Hausberger, etc. Hmm, now too bad for the loss of these excellent riders but hey we want to stick to tradition so that “..if Emperor Franz Josef would return tomorrow, everything looks the same, at the moment when he left…” right? (what if Karli returns tomorrow and not Franz Josef?)

    Andreas maybe his Majesty Robert Heinrich I. would have mercy on you then and offer you a job at his court? Maybe you should contact his confidant Obersthofmeister Seyffenstein for a meeting? I think this would make for a delightful meeting for the Austrians ☺

    Atjan, are you getting my drift? No then let’s continue..

    Forget the tradition of the US constitution that gives every man (and woman?) the right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” And the equal rights movement that has enabled US women to earn the same wages as their male counterparts for the same work. In Austria women still earn 1/3 less for the same work. In other countries women still get stoned to death to preserve the tradition and honor of a family. Thank you for you support of other women in other countries. I am sure they appreciate it.

    Yes, the Oessis did break with tradition, but sometimes you need to do this. Or do you think that a human being or child should be tortured out of tradition??
    Breaking with tradition means a step forward. Sometimes it is good, sometimes it is not.
    But we don’t know until we have tried. Nobody is loosing something with women joining the school.

    May the best Eleve stay with the SRS to continue with the tradition of the training and riding (regardless or gender or race).

    Congrats to the two girls braking through the glass ceiling. Don’t let anybody put you down, especially Austrian men!

    Tu felix Austria, if having women in the SRS is your biggest problem….

    Es war sehr schoen es hat uns sehr gefreut and remember that on 9/11 some gave all and all gave some. Be safe.

    Yours truly,
    HofKasperl

    PS: The brown tailcoats are ugly on males too, period.


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  14. Hello, I hate to disagree with Atjan on this especially since his opinion corresponds very closely to one attributed to Chief Rider Riegler  in a newspaper article 6 or 7 years ago.  He too used the argument that the Spanish Riding School would not be the Spanish Riding School if there were women Bereiter just as the Vienna Boys Choir would not be the Vienna Boys Choir if they included girls in the choir. It would have to become the Vienna Children’s Choir instead. But, I think the all male tradition at the School is one we can live without. Here in the US, women would have sued the government for discrimination at least 30 years ago.  I am just glad to see that it did not come to that sort of legal circus in Austria! The only thing I dislike about this decision is that it was made unilaterally by the business manager rather than by the Riders, Chief Riders or Leiter Bachinger. At least if they had selected the girls, we would know that they have enough potential to be legitimate eleves.  With Mrs G체rtler making the decision, it seems political - as if she wanted something to show movement on a point that the EU has been pressuring the School about for some years. In other words, she can claim to have accomplished what previous Directors failed to do. It’s too bad that her break with tradition wasn’t related to improving the School’s financial situation so it would be there 100 years from now! I hope she can do that! If she does, I will applaud loudly – so loud that she will hear it in Vienna 6,000 miles (10,000 KM) away! John

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  15. AT LAST I SUCCEEDED !!

    Somebody from Austria awakened and had the courage to react. I am glad with that.

    You seem to be well informed, dear Hofkasperl. It is a pity that you did not show your real identity yet. But you know who I am, apparently. So I may shake your hand next week, without knowing that you are "Hofkasperl" I must admit that I do not like that thought, related to your (hostile) tone. So may I invite you to be brave once again, and mention me your identity. It may result in a structural discussion. So what can you loose?

    In spite of all your details and arguments, and in spite of the sarcastic tone in it, I fear that you still did not get my message. I spoke about leaving the basic values of the institution, the obligation of the institution, as stated in a specific law. And the threat that leaving one of those basic values may be the first, with next to follow. Which may result that the Spanish Ridingschool may loose its real identity for ever, and may become a circus performance after all. Just for the money and the tourists.

    All your details of daily practice behind the scenes, with all modern development has nothing to do with that, and show to me, that you really did not get my message.

    So... missed chance....

    And yes, I do like women. And yes, I do like Austrians. And yes, I do like female riders.
    And yes, I think that women are equal to men. And yes, I think that Austrian are equal to other people. And yes, I think that female riders are equal to male riders.

    And no, I am still not happy with the latest developments in Vienna, in spite of all your irrelevant stream of modern details of the company. (which is something different than the institution, if you may follow that).

    So I did not awaken you after all. Sleep tight....
    Atjan







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  16. While I appreciate and have often benefited from Atjan's knowledge of the Lipizzaner and the School, I must agree with HofKasperl in failing to see the necessity (or the possibility) that the institution remain precisely as it existed in the time of Franz Josef.  If that is the way the School has been constituted under law, I assume it is because the law was framed at a time when institutions perceived as elite were under threat from socialist ideals.  If there were a genuine legal constraint preventing any innovation to the School's operation, all of the changes introduced by the Graf van der Straten, Colonel Podhajsky, and subsequent Directors in recruiting pupils, staging public performances, and caring for the welfare of the stallions would not have been possible.   I have always understood the School's fundamental duties to be the preservation and promotion of pure classical dressage, and the preservation of the Lipizzaner breed.  The introduction of female élèves presents no threat to either of those goals.    In all equine sports, at all levels, women riders compete equally with their male counterparts, so there can be no need for alterations to riding methods or to the Bereiter's uniform to "accommodate" female Bereiter.  One may as well ask that a fat Bereiter wear a different uniform from a thin one, for the sake of elegance. We are the same species.  Last time I looked.

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  17. Dear Djebrinn,

    This will be the last time, that I state, that my concern has nothing to do with the gender of the riders, or with modern developments in running a company, but with the principle of basic values in preserving cultural heritage, which is unique in the world. Apparently I attach different values to that than others.

    My first sentence in my 1st appeal can be still repeated in this matter:
    "And now I am going to react to this, in a way that might be misunderstood by you, in spite of my true intentions."

    This will be my last contribution to this item. There has been said enough. It was just a personal concern and opinion, no more. Let's organize a reunion in - let's say- 20 years, to look where the Spanish Ridingschool is standing then.

    CU in the next topic.
    Atjan

    PS
    Did you that the English translation for "Hofkasperl" is "court jester" ? ;-)

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  18. LOL!   You gave me a good chuckle now - Atjan.  Good for both of us.   If I offended you I am sorry, I know I have a sharp tongue and can be very sarcastic. Many Austrians are sarcastic as am I. It is not a trait I am proud off as I realize it is a form of suppressed anger but you just got me going.  I was offended by your comments.   I do not agree with your reasoning.  My point is that the quality of the school is not being jeopardized by women joining. The school (in my opinion) has been and is going to turn into a circus but because of other reasons. (But then circuses are colorful and that would be so much nicer to look at - JK!)   Have you maybe realized also that Andreas often posts comments stating simply facts and the rest of the online community starts getting into discussions etc. while he sits back and watches (and maybe gets a good laugh at us)?   You did confuse me a bit about shaking hands next week??  That would only work if people meet physically so...??  Could you please enlighten me on that?   Got to get going now so that maybe hopefully I will finally get my "Dornr철schenschlaf" - nope, wishful thinking on my part, HofKasperln cannot turn into Princesses ;-)   Regards, HofKasperl (aka Cosima)   PS: I (used to) like men ...  but the Europeans make it really tough...

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  19. Another example of breaking tradition is the invention of the modern seat by Francois Robichon de la Gueriniere - a revolution in dressage riding! Alois Podhajsky broke tradition by introducing one tempi changes to the SRS! A revolution too, because they are not classical at all! The tradition was broke by having a female director!

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  20. Great information!  I did not know the one tempi changes were "new" (relatively speaking, less than 100 years old).  

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  21. Yes, the one tempi flying changes are fairly "modern" were said to have been "invented" by Francois Baucher, a French circus rider who died in 1873. I will see if I can find a quotation for that.   But, in his "Complete Training of Horse and Rider", Podhajsky wrote "Changes at every stride are one of the most controversial exercises as a number of experts consider them circus movements and disapprove of them for this reason. Many arguments took place at the Spanish Riding School, without ever coming to a satisfactory conclusion. No one could give a reasonable explanation either for or against them. But, the Federation Equestre Internationale, as the ruling body on international equitation, declares that the belong to the classical exercises and denabds them in the Olympic Games. It is, therefore, superfluous to discuss the matter in this book." (page 183 of the Wilshire paperback edition) Since the FEI was only founded in 1921 and Podhajksy became Director of the School in 1939, the "discsuions" he mentions probably took place during the 2nd World War.  So, in short, Podhajsky accepted them as classical because the governing body on competitive riding accepted them... Which might be an interesting discussion in itself! ;-)

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  22. I found a quotation about the invention of one tempi changes in “Francois Baucher: Man & Method “ by Nelson, Hilda published by J.A. Allen in 1991. Nelson’s book includes a translation of Baucher’s book “Methode d’Equitation basee sur de nouveaux principles”. Baucher’s book  was first published in 1842.The title literally translates as “A Method of Equitation based on New Principles” but it was translated as “New Method of Horsemanship” by the unknown translator. In chapter 8 of his book, Baucher claims that only by understanding and applying his principles, can a rider make his horse execute any movement. He continues “I am about to give convincing proof in support of that assertion by explaining the sixteen new figures of the manege that I have added to the collection of the old masters” (Page 141 in Nelson’s book).   In chapter 9, Baucher enumerates the 16 movements. Here is his definition of his twelfth invention: “(12) Changing feet at every step, each time of the gallop being done on a different leg” (Page 145 in Nelson’s book).  Baucher goes on to explain that one must first develop the flying changes to the point that the horse can change every other stride before attempting changes at every stride. It’s pretty clear however that he was mistaken in saying that one could only achieve changes at every stride by understanding and applying his principles. Most riders today have no idea who Baucher was and even fewer understand and apply his principles.

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