Although I did not see the definite version of the book yet (it is on its way to me), I can highly recommend this !
The authors are well known to me, (Dr.Thomas Druml is president of the LIF-Breeding Committee) and definitely experts to the subject (and to horse breeding in common). Unfortunately for the English-speaking part of the world, again this book is only in German available. But it is a very valuable document, with many unique pictures, and interesting tables.
From where did you order the book? The only hit I got from a google search was Amazon.de and that website only said it was unknown when the book would be available.
Maybe this book would explain why the old guys felt the need to introduce new blood to the original Spanish stock they took to Lipica... I wondered why was it that if they liked so much the Spanish horses, they introduced so many other breeds ? AND What aspects from the other breeds they thought would improve *what* in the original stock? http://horsesanddressage.multiply.com/journal/item/287/Genome_of_the_Lipizzan and also maybe throw some light to understand the genome. So many questions... :) I will have to wait as I do not know German.:( Greetings to all!! marisela
The perspective about breeding in the 15th-18th century was completely different than in our times. To their opinion they did not bring in "new" blood, as you call it from a modern perspective. The Spanish horse type with its specific, unique characteristics, was what they were looking for. Pedigrees were not interesting then, knowledge of genetics was not developed yet (this started in the 19th century). To reach this breeding goal, they used every horse which would be suitable to reach their breeding goal. Whether such a horse was bred in Spain, in the south of Italy ("Neapolitan"), in the German area, or in Denmark was not interesting for them.
The breed in the Habsburg court stud of Lippiza (since 1580) and the Habsburg court stud of Cordoba (since 1567, the true origin of the "Pura Raza Espanola" - not the Carthusian munks!) were based on the same blood, the best which they could find on the Iberian peninsula. Both founders (Archduke Charles and King Philip II) were cousins. Charles was partly raised in Spain. His father (Emperor Ferdinand I) completely.
The incrossing to which you refer to (defined by the "genome of the Lipizzan", as you quoted) was quite normal in those times. NOTE: also within the "Pure" Spanish horse !! Also horses from Austria and Naples were taken into Spain in those times - a continuating exchange of breeding stock within the Habsburg area. (which included the Austrian empire, the south of Italy and Spain).
Since the 2nd half of the 18th century a lot of non-Iberian blood was introduced in the Spanish and Portuguese horse breeding. In the 19th century even English Thoroughbred! This is the reason why the Habsburg stablemasters looked for comparable horse types elsewhere than in Spain: the desired type was hard to find under the Bourbon-kings in Spain.
But within the Spanish/Neapolitan breed of the Habsburg dynasty (of which imperial stud Lippiza became the most famous), also these kind of developments took place, mostly with some oriental blood in the 19th century.
All these influences were removed out of the breeding by selection in the last decades of the 19th century, (in Spain, in Portugal, and in Austria-Hungary) as this appeared to cause undesired effects in the outward appearances, breed characteristics and movements. The present populations of the Lipizzaner, the PRE and the Lusitano are based on that refind population of the late 19th century. The present differences between these three breeds can only be explained by the national differences in selection by the breeders: national needs and fashion influenced this.
From this point of view, one can state that the Lipizzaner and PRE are sister breeds, with a complete similar development, regarding the breed history. Both based on the best Iberian blood of the 16th century. Both similar developed in the 17th-19th century. Both stabilized as a breed in the 20th century.
By the way.... the book of Thomas Druml and Gertrud Grilz-Seeger is superb! The best book ever written about the true backgrounds of the development of the Lipizzaner breed!
Thank you Atjan for your input. I appreciate you taking the time to write as it is both illuminating and a pleasure to read you. About the new blood, I did not express myself properly :(, what I called new blood was anything that was not Spanish, in contrast to Spanish horses as new blood as it was interpreted.
I am afraid that by reading your text has reproduced the number of questions in my mind.:)
Just additional then: the main subject of my reply was: "The Habsburg rulers did not intend to breed or develop a horse breed or race, but just the desired type of horse: the Spanish type. (Nowadays we call this a "baroque" type, but this development already started in the 16th century.) - In our times we call the breed which appeared to develop "Lipizzaner" now. But from the Habsburg equerries perspective they simply bred horses of the Spanish type or the Neapolitan type (which were slightly different defined, but mainly comparable), suitable for the desires of the Habsburg imperial court: an elegant, stately, healthy, brave and strong horse for parades, representation, war, hunting and transportation.
Through the centuries they used every horse that could be suitable to reach their breeding goal. Of course this horse could be found in the beginning in Spain (mostly in the south, in Andalusia), but also Barbs, Neapolitan horses, and horses from "colleagues", influenced by original Spanish horses, (like the kings of Denmark, with their famous Frederikborg-stud) were used.
Specific: The main reasons that the Austrian Habsburg started to use more original Neapolitan blood than original Spanish in the 18th century is quite clear: 1) Since about 1700 Spain was not Habsburg anymore. The tight family connections between Vienna and Madrid disappeared. The relationship to the Kingdom of Naples-Sicily remained. 2) Since the 2nd half of the 18th century a lot of non-Iberian blood was introduced in the Spanish and Portuguese horse breeding. In the 19th century even English Thoroughbred! This is the reason why the Habsburg stablemasters looked for comparable horse types elsewhere than in Spain: the desired type was hard to find under the Bourbon kings in Spain.
"Lipizzaner Hengststämme"
Although I did not see the definite version of the book yet (it is on its way to me), I can highly recommend this !
AntwortenLöschenThe authors are well known to me, (Dr.Thomas Druml is president of the LIF-Breeding Committee) and definitely experts to the subject (and to horse breeding in common). Unfortunately for the English-speaking part of the world, again this book is only in German available. But it is a very valuable document, with many unique pictures, and interesting tables.
Atjan Hop
Atjan,
AntwortenLöschenFrom where did you order the book? The only hit I got from a google search was Amazon.de and that website only said it was unknown when the book would be available.
Thomas Druml sent it to me personally ;-) I expect it any day now.
AntwortenLöschenBut you can order it directly with the editor, Vehling Verlag GmbH in Graz. Link: http://www.vehling.at/Vehling_Verlag/Neuerscheinungen/Eintrage/2011/10/11_Lipizzaner_Hengststamme.html
And please find the website of the authors: http://www.hippo-logos.com/main/blogcategory/
Maybe this book would explain why the old guys felt the need to introduce new blood to the original Spanish stock they took to Lipica... I wondered why was it that if they liked so much the Spanish horses, they introduced so many other breeds ? AND What aspects from the other breeds they thought would improve *what* in the original stock?
AntwortenLöschenhttp://horsesanddressage.multiply.com/journal/item/287/Genome_of_the_Lipizzan
and also maybe throw some light to understand the genome.
So many questions... :)
I will have to wait as I do not know German.:(
Greetings to all!!
marisela
The perspective about breeding in the 15th-18th century was completely different than in our times. To their opinion they did not bring in "new" blood, as you call it from a modern perspective. The Spanish horse type with its specific, unique characteristics, was what they were looking for. Pedigrees were not interesting then, knowledge of genetics was not developed yet (this started in the 19th century). To reach this breeding goal, they used every horse which would be suitable to reach their breeding goal. Whether such a horse was bred in Spain, in the south of Italy ("Neapolitan"), in the German area, or in Denmark was not interesting for them.
AntwortenLöschenThe breed in the Habsburg court stud of Lippiza (since 1580) and the Habsburg court stud of Cordoba (since 1567, the true origin of the "Pura Raza Espanola" - not the Carthusian munks!) were based on the same blood, the best which they could find on the Iberian peninsula. Both founders (Archduke Charles and King Philip II) were cousins. Charles was partly raised in Spain. His father (Emperor Ferdinand I) completely.
The incrossing to which you refer to (defined by the "genome of the Lipizzan", as you quoted) was quite normal in those times. NOTE: also within the "Pure" Spanish horse !! Also horses from Austria and Naples were taken into Spain in those times - a continuating exchange of breeding stock within the Habsburg area. (which included the Austrian empire, the south of Italy and Spain).
Since the 2nd half of the 18th century a lot of non-Iberian blood was introduced in the Spanish and Portuguese horse breeding. In the 19th century even English Thoroughbred! This is the reason why the Habsburg stablemasters looked for comparable horse types elsewhere than in Spain: the desired type was hard to find under the Bourbon-kings in Spain.
But within the Spanish/Neapolitan breed of the Habsburg dynasty (of which imperial stud Lippiza became the most famous), also these kind of developments took place, mostly with some oriental blood in the 19th century.
All these influences were removed out of the breeding by selection in the last decades of the 19th century, (in Spain, in Portugal, and in Austria-Hungary) as this appeared to cause undesired effects in the outward appearances, breed characteristics and movements. The present populations of the Lipizzaner, the PRE and the Lusitano are based on that refind population of the late 19th century. The present differences between these three breeds can only be explained by the national differences in selection by the breeders: national needs and fashion influenced this.
From this point of view, one can state that the Lipizzaner and PRE are sister breeds, with a complete similar development, regarding the breed history. Both based on the best Iberian blood of the 16th century. Both similar developed in the 17th-19th century. Both stabilized as a breed in the 20th century.
Atjan
By the way.... the book of Thomas Druml and Gertrud Grilz-Seeger is superb! The best book ever written about the true backgrounds of the development of the Lipizzaner breed!
AntwortenLöschenThank you Atjan for your input. I appreciate you taking the time to write as it is both illuminating and a pleasure to read you.
AntwortenLöschenAbout the new blood, I did not express myself properly :(, what I called new blood was anything that was not Spanish, in contrast to Spanish horses as new blood as it was interpreted.
I am afraid that by reading your text has reproduced the number of questions in my mind.:)
Best,
marisela
Just additional then:
AntwortenLöschenthe main subject of my reply was: "The Habsburg rulers did not intend to breed or develop a horse breed or race, but just the desired type of horse: the Spanish type. (Nowadays we call this a "baroque" type, but this development already started in the 16th century.) - In our times we call the breed which appeared to develop "Lipizzaner" now. But from the Habsburg equerries perspective they simply bred horses of the Spanish type or the Neapolitan type (which were slightly different defined, but mainly comparable), suitable for the desires of the Habsburg imperial court: an elegant, stately, healthy, brave and strong horse for parades, representation, war, hunting and transportation.
Through the centuries they used every horse that could be suitable to reach their breeding goal. Of course this horse could be found in the beginning in Spain (mostly in the south, in Andalusia), but also Barbs, Neapolitan horses, and horses from "colleagues", influenced by original Spanish horses, (like the kings of Denmark, with their famous Frederikborg-stud) were used.
Specific:
The main reasons that the Austrian Habsburg started to use more original Neapolitan blood than original Spanish in the 18th century is quite clear:
1) Since about 1700 Spain was not Habsburg anymore. The tight family connections between Vienna and Madrid disappeared. The relationship to the Kingdom of Naples-Sicily remained.
2) Since the 2nd half of the 18th century a lot of non-Iberian blood was introduced in the Spanish and Portuguese horse breeding. In the 19th century even English Thoroughbred! This is the reason why the Habsburg stablemasters looked for comparable horse types elsewhere than in Spain: the desired type was hard to find under the Bourbon kings in Spain.
Thank you, Atjanh.
AntwortenLöschenThis certainly explain why they didn't keep the original Spanish/Iberian type.
Best to all,
marisela